Finale Forum Store | Buy Sheet Music

templates clarification

The place for beginner Finale users. ("How do I...")

Moderators: miker, Peter Thomsen

templates clarification

Postby lynndavidnewton » Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:45 pm

This has got to be a common question, so I'm adding it to the beginners collection.

I'm running the latest Finale on an up-to-date Mac (and yes, I have the High Sierra update).

I've been using Finale since maybe 2002 (with a long hiatus from about 2004 to the present). Now using it once again. I know music well, I know computers well, and know music notation well.

I've duly read this article on templates on the Finale blog:
https://www.finalemusic.com/blog/finale ... mbly-line/
but don't like what I'm seeing unless I misunderstand something.

I'm working on a difficult multi-movement score, a piece for solo piano. In working through it I set up certain things that I want to reiterate in the second and third movements. I didn't know in advance what sorts of custom tweaks I'd want to add to this score. But now that I'm ready to proceed with other movements, I'd like the same things to apply to them. Is there really no procedure in Finale by means of which I can use a fully developed score as a template, as might often be done in a multi-movement piece?

I suppose I can just copy the first movement score to another name and delete the measures. But that seems hokey. Besides, I don't want a full title and composer credits on the second and third movements.

What am I missing?
lynndavidnewton
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:11 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Finale Version: 25.4.1.163
Operating System: Mac

Re: templates clarification

by Sponsor

Forum Sponsor
 

Re: templates clarification

Postby miker » Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:54 pm

Nothing hokey about it. That's the way I would do it.
Finale 25.4.1 | SmartScorePro X2
Mac OS 10.12.6 Sierra
Copyist for Barbershop Harmony Society
User avatar
miker
 
Posts: 4185
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:28 pm
Location: Seattle, WA USA
Finale Version: Finale 25
Operating System: Mac

Re: templates clarification

Postby zuill » Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:56 pm

That's one way, and I've used that approach. Or, you can put the file into the folder that the Wizard uses (I don't know how Mac works in that process, so you'll have to check the manual), and then choose it when starting a new movement with the Wizard.

Zuill
Windows 7, Finale 2011-v25.5
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
User avatar
zuill
 
Posts: 1180
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:35 pm
Location: Southern California
Finale Version: Finale 2011-v25.5
Operating System: Windows

Re: templates clarification

Postby lynndavidnewton » Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:08 pm

miker: So what do you do about the repeated title and other stuff. Just edit it out? Not that difficult to do I suppose.
lynndavidnewton
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:11 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Finale Version: 25.4.1.163
Operating System: Mac

Re: templates clarification

Postby miker » Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:11 pm

That's what I would do. I don't use the linked frames to the File Info, so it isn't a problem.
Finale 25.4.1 | SmartScorePro X2
Mac OS 10.12.6 Sierra
Copyist for Barbershop Harmony Society
User avatar
miker
 
Posts: 4185
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:28 pm
Location: Seattle, WA USA
Finale Version: Finale 25
Operating System: Mac

Re: templates clarification

Postby lynndavidnewton » Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:25 pm

Zuill, the suggestion you make is the problem on a Mac. Mac OS goes to great lengths to hide things in $HOME/Library and its subdirectories from users, and with great reason. I learned the hard way once to never ever blithely copy and delete files from ~/Library and then expect your system to work right thereafter. Recent versions of Mac OS even prevent you from seeing this directory from the UI. This saves both users from fouling up their systems dramatically and Apple from having to handhold users who have messed up their stuff.

This was a lesson that I found difficult to learn because one of my two other careers (besides an early career in music) was 25 years as a software engineer in a Unix and Linux environment. I am totally comfortable from a shell command line and still use it for 80% of what I do.

The problem with this is that I was naive enough not to know to leave ~/Library alone until I started putting files in and taking others out and in effect crippled my system.

The point being: therein lay the Finale template files. Furthermore, I find that by exploring that directory (you can't hurt anything by just looking)
I find that in ~/Library/Application Support/MakeMusic there are *three* further subdirectories named Finale, Finale 2011, and Finale 2012. Exactly where the templates are from there I'm not sure without doing a find. Or whether I really need both Finale2011 and Finale2012 I'm not sure, but I'm sure not going to rip them out.

The Finale Blog says it's a bad idea to save an existing fully developed piece as a template. Also, I found it impossible to save it to the real, authentic hierarchy of templates that comes with the installed software.

I'm still exploring this and don't have a satisfying answer yet.
lynndavidnewton
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:11 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Finale Version: 25.4.1.163
Operating System: Mac

Re: templates clarification

Postby motet » Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:18 pm

I just read something that said you can take a fully-done piece and make it into a template in one step, but I don't remember where.
User avatar
motet
 
Posts: 1527
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
Location: Northern California
Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005
Operating System: Windows

Re: templates clarification

Postby lynndavidnewton » Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:20 pm

:D I'd sure love to hear about it!

Thanks.
lynndavidnewton
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:11 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Finale Version: 25.4.1.163
Operating System: Mac

Re: templates clarification

Postby motet » Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:45 pm

I'll try to find it. If you do go the delete-all-but-measure-1 route, clear everything first before deleting. Finale has been known to leave hairpins, for example, when measures are deleted such that when you add back empty measures, the hairpins reappear.
User avatar
motet
 
Posts: 1527
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
Location: Northern California
Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005
Operating System: Windows

Re: templates clarification

Postby motet » Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:54 pm

I guess it was this:

https://www.finalemusic.com/blog/default-files-document-styles-templates/

"Document Styles

Document Styles are definitely a step up from templates when you’ve got a lot of different input types. Putting a completed score in the Document Styles folder retains all settings, minus the note entries. The drawback to this option is information remains from the source file, such as tempo marks, endings, lyrics, and bar line types, all of which need to be cleaned out prior to entering data in a new document. "
User avatar
motet
 
Posts: 1527
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
Location: Northern California
Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005
Operating System: Windows

Re: templates clarification

Postby zuill » Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:58 pm

A Template has all the staves. A Style doesn't. You need to manually add the staves. So, if you have a working setup with all the needed staves, then a Template is far superior. I know there is a way to save a staff setup with the Wizard, but I believe that information is saved independently from the Style.

Zuill
Windows 7, Finale 2011-v25.5
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
User avatar
zuill
 
Posts: 1180
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:35 pm
Location: Southern California
Finale Version: Finale 2011-v25.5
Operating System: Windows

Re: templates clarification

Postby lynndavidnewton » Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:08 pm

OK, that article about Default Files, Document Styles, and Templates is informative, though maybe a couple of pages ahead of my skill level right now. I'll have to ease into that sort of thing.

Meanwhile, since I need to keep moving, I went the route of copying the first movement, yes clearing the empty measures, then removing most of them, then adding measures. And I guess the first page edits are inconsequential.

miker: Yes, the main title, composer credit, dedication (to the pianist I wrote for) etc., are really only text objects. So I took out all and created a subtitle for the movement name (which is just "Ib").

One thing I was worried about: I have to set the distance between staves a little wider than normal. This is one of those complicated pieces that would have been labeled "avant garde" in its day (I wrote it about 55 years ago) that has all kinds of jumping around, mixed tuples, and loads and loads of dynamics and hairpins. I sometimes need space between the staves to handle everything. This is equally true in the second and third movements of the piece.

But I think I'm on the way now.

Thank you for your generous support.
lynndavidnewton
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:11 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Finale Version: 25.4.1.163
Operating System: Mac

Re: templates clarification

Postby BuonTempi » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:13 am

lynndavidnewton wrote:Zuill, the suggestion you make is the problem on a Mac. Mac OS goes to great lengths to hide things in $HOME/Library and its subdirectories from users, and with great reason. I learned the hard way once to never ever blithely copy and delete files from ~/Library and then expect your system to work right thereafter. Recent versions of Mac OS even prevent you from seeing this directory from the UI. This saves both users from fouling up their systems dramatically and Apple from having to handhold users who have messed up their stuff.

I think you're being too cautious. :wink:
The USER Library starts off almost entirely empty, and applications populate it with the files they need on first launch. (You can create a brand new user account and every app should work fine.) Deleting app's files in the user Library is a commonly used trouble-shooting technique for fixing problems if those files have become corrupt.

Of course, the user Library contains a wide range of stuff, and its conceivable that you could spanner things up, but generally anything in Application Support or Preferences is fair game. But I'd say your experience is at the extreme and unlucky end.

Yes, Apple protects users from themselves by hiding the Library, though it also provides about 20 methods of revealing it.
I think Finale installs an alias at ~/Documents/Finale Files to the Template, Document Styles, and Defaults folders.

Adding or Deleting files from /Library -- the folder at the root level of your system disk -- may well have problematic results.
There is yet another library, /System/Library, and Apple have made this closed off from any alteration, (with one or two exceptions).

As you've noticed, each version of Finale saves its own set of files inside the MakeMusic folder. The files and folders inside each should be broadly similar.
User avatar
BuonTempi
 
Posts: 535
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:59 am
Finale Version: Finale 25
Operating System: Mac

Re: templates clarification

Postby MikeHalloran » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:59 pm

Mac OS goes to great lengths to hide things in $HOME/Library and its subdirectories from users, and with great reason.


The OP is using OS 10.13 so that does not apply. In fact, it hasn't been true for a few years.

In the versions of the OS where this was true (10.7 – 10.9?), right-click in the folder or running these Terminal commands made it appear/disappear:

Show User Library:

chflags nohidden ~/Library

killall Finder (optional — close/open folder works also)

To re-hide User Library:

chflags hidden ~/Library

killall Finder
Mike Halloran

Finale 25.5 (2014.5, PrintMusic 2014.5 for Testing), SmartScore X2 Pro, GPO5
2010 iMac 2.93G i7, 32G RAM, OS 10.13.1 2T SSD
Overture 5.5-2, Notion 6, Encore 5.0.7, DP 9.51, Logic Pro X
Legacy G4: OS 10.4.11/9.2, Finale 1998/2002
User avatar
MikeHalloran
 
Posts: 429
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:56 am
Finale Version: 25.4/2014.5/PM2014.5
Operating System: Mac

Re: templates clarification

Postby lynndavidnewton » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:13 pm

I'll agree that it is possible to be too careful about ~/Library. However, sometime in the last year I did something a little too liberal with it and wound up spending a season in hell.

Yes, it's possible to delete everything in ~/Library and have everything work. But the problem with that is that's where preferences and stuff like cookies and other stuff that has carefully been accumulated over a period of time exists. And what you *can't* do is just restore subdirectories from a backup using cpio or cp -a. And I was trying to avoid that.

Also, when I migrated one of my iMacs to be my wife's machine, while I took her old machine as a secondary machine for myself while switching myself over to my MacBook Pro, I found that an rsync of accounts is *not* the way to go.

Fortunately I have become a believer (after about ten years of resisting) of Time Machine, and am amazed by how totally correctly the Migration Assistant program works. That's the way to do it.

I've been away from the software engineering environment I was a part of for a number of years now, and since I have no next-cubicle support available like I became used to, I'm now unfamiliar with many of the standard things that you can do from a command line on a Mac. For instance, though I've used it, I forgot about chflags to hide and unhide directories. (Is that a root command? I've forgotten that, too.)

Meanwhile, the Mac seems to do what you need to do correctly, if you just understand the procedure, but doing that requires an act of faith, particularly when what it does under the hood is hidden from users. My inclination is always to go to the command line. I'm gradually kicking that habit.

I'm reminded of when for a while I had to test the AIX operating system, IBM's version of Unix. The entire root administration interface is handled by a system of menus and some kind of a database program. The problem for me was for years, if I wanted to add a user account to a Unix system, I was used to just editing the file /etc/passwd and copying basic files into the directory. In AIX, if you do that, it will not inform the database, and when you next try to do something to a user account, it will disappear. Where I worked we did pretty much what we wanted to with systems because most of what we were working on were test systems, and if they got destroyed they could just be reinstalled with little consequence to users.

Similar things apply to Mac OS X. It's best just to do things the Mac way if you don't want to suffer greatly.

Thanks again to all. I'll skip worrying about templates too much for now. Pretty much every project I'm doing is a custom job anyhow.
lynndavidnewton
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:11 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Finale Version: 25.4.1.163
Operating System: Mac



Similar topics


Return to Beginners

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 2 guests


Music Engravers and Music Copyists
   Finale - Sibelius - Cakewalk - Archives - Finale Books - Contact


Copyright © 1994 - 2017 by C.M. Press, LLC