Chord playback errors over slash notation?

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Logandrum
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Post by Logandrum » Fri Oct 17, 2014 10:36 pm

Hello, I was just noticing that Finale does not play the correct chord quality when playing back bars with slash notation...

For ex: F#min7 plays back like an F#min/E which is really out and not helpful when listening back to the notation...

When I change from slash to regular music notation the chords play back fine...

Any reason that this is happening? Is it a setting? Can finale not play the correct chords over slash notation?

Thanks!


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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:21 pm

I am unable to duplicate your problem.
No matter whether there is Slash Notation or not, I get the same chord symbol playback.

1) We may need to see an actual Finale document.
You can attach a document here.
However, this forum will not accept your Finale document until you compress it, e. g. as a .zip file.
And the file size must not be more than max. 100 KB.

2) In general I would not recommend Finale’s playback of chord symbols - because of the lousy voicing between the chords.
To get good chord voicing, disable chord symbol playback (look in the Chord menu), and enter playback chords in a hidden layer.
Mac OS X 12.6.9 (Monterey), Finale user since 1996

Logandrum
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Post by Logandrum » Sun Oct 19, 2014 4:30 am

Thanks Peter, but I have been ok with leaving "enable chord playback" on thus far when working with finale...

This is definitely a new problem that seems to come out of nowhere...

To test this issue out, I started a new finale document, and entered in some chords both over slash notation and then just over bars with a whole rest...

When finale plays back the chords over the slash notation not only are the chords played back wrong, but it's as if there is a rhythmic pattern assigned to the playback.. like a single melody note playing 1/8 notes in the right hand and the left hand "wrong" chords playing 1/4 notes.. That is the only way I can explain it..

Also, the chords are played back wrong over the Amin, and D7 chords, but not in the same rhythmic sequence as when played over the slash notation.. Very strange...

I went back to the previous finale document which was a 2 handed piano jazz piece, and the everything plays back perfectly..

I have not changed anything in finale, preference wise between these 2 projects...

This is however my 1st chart using slash notation...That is the only thing different between the two...

Would you have any idea as to why this would be happening?

I am fine with the way Finale plays chords back, as long as I hear the chord quality I am good to go..

Thanks!
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Logandrum
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Post by Logandrum » Sun Oct 19, 2014 4:32 am

Sorry, I forgot to add, the C and D triads play back correctly...

*The C triad proceeds the D which got cut off in my screen shot..

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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Sun Oct 19, 2014 12:37 pm

Logandrum wrote:…When finale plays back the chords over the slash notation not only are the chords played back wrong, but it's as if there is a rhythmic pattern assigned to the playback.. like a single melody note playing 1/8 notes in the right hand and the left hand "wrong" chords playing 1/4 notes.. That is the only way I can explain it..

Also, the chords are played back wrong over the Amin, and D7 chords, but not in the same rhythmic sequence as when played over the slash notation.. Very strange...

I went back to the previous finale document which was a 2 handed piano jazz piece, and the everything plays back perfectly…
From your description it sounds like the problem is document specific.


Logandrum wrote:…Would you have any idea as to why this would be happening?…
I have no idea, sorry.

Seeing an actual Finale document (not a screen shot!) might help, since we can examine the document, and perhaps find the culprit.

Also, it might be worthwhile to contact the folks in Tech Support at MakeMusic.
I am sure that they, too, would ask for an actual Finale document with the problem in it.
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Logandrum
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Post by Logandrum » Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:31 pm

Hey Peter, Unfortunately do not think it is document specific.. The screen shot above was from a new document trying to re create the problem.. and I had the same issue..

So I attached the actual finale document here..I deleted all of the 2nd page and other stuff to make it under 100KB, but you have enough there so see if you can find the problem...

Let me know if you can reproduce the chord playback issue..

Thanks again!
Last edited by Logandrum on Tue Oct 21, 2014 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Mon Oct 20, 2014 5:00 am

Logandrum,

I have examined the document you attached.

1) What I do not understand, is the reason why you have entered the same silly melody in all the Slash Notation measures:
Quarter-notes A - B - A - A
That silly melody is quite boring to hear during 24 measures.
And it clashes a lot with the E major chords.
Why did you add that silly melody?

2) As Far As I Can Tell, none of your chord suffixes are defined for playback.
As a consequence, all chords are playing back as major triads.

By The Way:
there are also some few lyrics, here and there, not making much sense.
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Logandrum
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Post by Logandrum » Mon Oct 20, 2014 5:52 am

Ha! Silly melody!

I entered 4 random quarter notes then apply staff styles to get 4 slash notation marks..

Sounds like I am doing that wrong?

I assume I can just apply staff styles to a bar with a whole rest in it?

Not sure where I saw/read that u have to add musical notaion first before changing to slash notation or other...

What do u mean chord suffixes defined for playback? How do I define them?

The lyrics are just placed as reference for the singer, it's not a note for note chart but rafher a master rhythm chart with some other detailed info here and there...

Thanks!

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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:04 am

Logandrum wrote:…I entered 4 random quarter notes then apply staff styles to get 4 slash notation marks..

Sounds like I am doing that wrong?

I assume I can just apply staff styles to a bar with a whole rest in it?…
Yes.

Logandrum wrote:……What do u mean chord suffixes defined for playback? How do I define them?…
From the dialog box Chord Suffix Editor, click the button “Set Play…”.
You will have to define playback for each and every suffix: mi7 - 7 - 6 - MA7 &c.
ChordSuffixEditor.jpg
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To avoid doing it more than once I would create an empty document with the chord suffixes (and perhaps even program chord metatools), and save that document as a template for new documents.
A ready made template can contain all your document settings (e. g. for Fonts, Line thicknesses, Music Spacing, &c.), and all your Expressions, Articulations, Text Repeats &c. - with pre-programmed metatools in all the tools.

This may sound like a lot of work (and you may not be willing/ready to create a template), but a template can be a huge time saver.

At least I would save the suffixes as a chord suffix library that can be loaded into other documents.
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Logandrum
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Post by Logandrum » Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:12 pm

Peter, Glad I can just add slash notation without added notes to the measure 1st..

As far as chords suffixes not being defined.. I did 2 previous charts where the chords played back just fine.. and to be honest, the chord playback feature is why I ultimately chose Finale over it's competitors...

I have no idea how I changed anything globally to not define the chord definition...


I guess I will have to go in and define each and every one from now on and save to a template as you recommend.. This is frustrating as it was working just fine b4 this particular document.. :(

Thanks again..

Logandrum
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Post by Logandrum » Tue Oct 21, 2014 4:52 am

Peter, I tried what you recommended with defining the suffix and when I hit "Set Play" I get a suffix key number offset box?

When I select ok, and proceed I still hear only major chords playing back..

Any ideas as to what I am doing wrong again?

Thank you so much..
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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:06 am

As Far As I Can Tell from your screen shot, you have not yet defined the chord for playback:
In the text boxes I only see zeros.

In short:
In this dialog box, you can define the voicing you want Finale to use when it plays back the chord suffix, you clicked.
Each note of the chord is identified by a number that represents the note’s interval, in half steps, from the root; this number is called the keynumber offset.
Either enter each keynumber offset in a text box and click the right and left arrows to scroll the display.
You can build a suffix of up to sixteen notes.
A negative number specifies a note that’s been played below the root of the chord, and a positive number specifies one above.

Something to try:

A. File menu > New > Default Document
In the Default Document, enter some chord symbols, and examine how their suffixes are defined for playback.

B. Take a look in the User Manual (look in the Help menu).
Click “Index”.
In the search field, type “suffix keynumber offsets”, and a hyperlink to the relevant article will pop up.
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Logandrum
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Post by Logandrum » Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:05 pm

Peter, thanks again for taking the time to walk me trough this..

So the good news is when I choose File menu > New > Default Document and add chords.. everything plays back perfectly and I do not have to define anything.. The playback is fine enough for me as is..

As far as defining suffixes, I went back to my problematic document and copied the suffix key number offsets of the chords from the default document into the document that is giving me trouble..

ex: Fmin9= 14 10 7 3
Bb13= 10 14 21 4

And yes this does define the chords to play back correctly... :)

But there is no way I should have to define for playback every chord I ever have to enter into Finale, that is a deal killer me for me.. also even with your detailed explanation I don't understand how to get to those numbers in the offset box.. Regardless that is way too much work and a time waster since I am not ready to make a template at this moment.. so to have to define every chord in single document is maddening..

So my question is this.. since the default document works perfectly for me, all I would have to do is change to the handwritten Jazz font and I am good to go...

Is there a way to change the font for the whole default document?

*Lastly, Finale is clearly able to play the correct chord definitions back in the default document, please explain to me why it won't in my document that I chose from the setup wizard? What would ever make them leave that feature out? Why must they make everything so difficult when it doesn't have to be? I am opened to be educated on why this would make sense..

p.p.s= I dont't even care about the voicing the chord is playing.. only that a minor 7 chord sounds like a minor 7 chord etc..

p.p.p.s= So I used my controller to play in the root 1st then the remaining notes of the chords so the suffix key numbers can be defined... I see how that could be a cool feature if you want a few chords here and there to play back in a certain voicing... but again you have to save to template or you lose your work per document, and what if the recording I am charting has a B7 chord voiced 4 different ways throughout the song, I assume I would have to define all those B7's for the document and apply a new suffix # to each...AND for each document too?

The flexibility is cool and "may" come in handy one day, but that is just too deep of a feature for my needs... but thanks for explaining it..

Thanks so much again!

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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:08 pm

Logandrum wrote:…Finale is clearly able to play the correct chord definitions back in the default document, please explain to me why it won't in my document that I chose from the setup wizard? What would ever make them leave that feature out? Why must they make everything so difficult when it doesn't have to be? I am opened to be educated on why this would make sense…
Of course the Jazz font chord suffixes should have been defined for playback.
All the other chord suffixes are defined for playback.
I am quite sure that this is an oversight from MakeMusic.
You should report it to the folks in MakeMusic’s Tech Support.


Logandrum wrote:…since the default document works perfectly for me, all I would have to do is change to the handwritten Jazz font and I am good to go…

Is there a way to change the font for the whole default document?…
Unfortunately it is not that simple, for two reasons:

1. The chord suffixes in the Default Document (= Maestro Font Default) are composed of individual font characters.
An example:
The suffix ‘mi7’ is composed of 3 font characters, namely ‘m’, ‘i’, and ‘7’.
But the chord suffixes in the Jazz Font template are a different story.
The chord suffixes in the Jazz Font template use a very special font, the JazzCord font.
In the JazzCord font each font character is a complete chord suffix.
An example:
In the JazzCord font the suffix ‘mi7’ is not composed of 3 individual font characters; it is 1 (one!) single font character.
Therefore, changing all the chord suffixes to the JazzCord font would not give the desired result.
The result might look somewhat like the (single character) JazzCord suffixes, but…

2. Another problem is that different fonts have different widths for the same character.
An example:
If you compare the letter ‘m’ character in different fonts, like Times, Arial and JazzCord, you will clearly see that the width is not the same.
Hence a simple font substitution in chord suffixes will give cases where some characters are too close to each other, or too far away from each other.
When you have substituted the font, you will have to edit the precise Horizontal positioning of each and every character in each and every suffix (= lots of work).



Instead of modifying the Default Document - by substituting its fonts, I suggest that you try the template “Handwritten” which uses the Broadway Copyist font.
In the template “Handwritten” the chord suffixes are defined for playback.
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Logandrum
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Post by Logandrum » Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:56 pm

Peter..

"I am quite sure that this is an oversight from MakeMusic.
You should report it to the folks in MakeMusic’s Tech Support"


I will definitely email them..

Thank you for explaining the difference in font issues between the default doc and the handwritten template..


"Instead of modifying the Default Document - by substituting its fonts, I suggest that you try the template “Handwritten” which uses the Broadway Copyist font.
In the template “Handwritten” the chord suffixes are defined for playback"



I now know why I was having this issue out of nowhere... I used the handwritten template with the broadway copyist font for the last 2 lead sheets and yes the chords played back...

I found that I prefer to use from the setup wizard, Handwritten Style->General-> Handwritten Style(Jazz Font) since it's cleaner and less bubbly looking then the Broadway font.. But clearly I cannot use this style and get the correct chord playback..

I guess I will just use the broadway copyist font from the handwritten template from now on...

You can't have it all.. sigh :|

Thanks Peter!

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