Classical guitar notation: "Slides", barré brackets

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Sapphire
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Post by Sapphire » Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:27 pm

Finale 2014, Mac 10.8

Hello everybody,

I'm utterly new to Finale and not even currently using it – I use Sibelius. I cracked when one of those crossgrade offers came – well – across…
However, using Sibelius I'm having problems writing classical guitar, so this might be the moment I seriously start to get involved with Finale.

1) Is it possible to add slide lines that link two notes that are not next to each other? The idea to this is: I don't need a slide in the musical sense (like a blues slide), but rather a fingering slide. Can I link two notes with a straight line, even when other notes are between them?

2) I find it hard to add a barré bracket in Sibelius. Can I do this in Finale? I'm talking about a vertical bracket whose horizontal end pin length can be customized, so as to indicate to players the length of the barré – one, two, three or more notes.

3) Is it possible in Finale to add a drop d guitar in standard notation or will I (like I do in Sibelius) get a red 'error' note when I add a low d?

4) Classical guitarists: Maybe you are experienced in both Sibelius and Finale and can share your experience? Can you tell what you are *missing* in Finale in terms of classical guitar notation?

I'm sorry if my description lacks linguistic precision – I'm not an anglophone speaker and need to get along with what I know. Feel free to use the appropriate technical terms, I'll be glad to update my database :-)

Thank you for answering!

S.
MBP 3,1 2.2GHz +++ OSX 10.8 +++ Finale 2014


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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:49 pm

Welcome to the forum!

I am not a guitarist, and I only know little of guitar notation.
If I misunderstand, then I apologize.

Finale can do 1), 2) and 3).
See the attached Finale 2014 document.
Attachments
Guitar.musx.zip
(12.83 KiB) Downloaded 367 times
Mac OS X 12.6.9 (Monterey), Finale user since 1996

Sapphire
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Post by Sapphire » Sat Jun 20, 2015 2:28 pm

Peter,

thanks a lot for answering!
I had a look at the file you sent me. Everything's fine except for the barré: There is only a simple opening square bracket. However I'd like the upper 'pin' of the bracket to stretch out to the right for as far as the barré is needed. To be *very* precise there would ideally be yet another pin pointing down at the end of the horizontal line.

Is there a one-step solution for this available, and be it that I have to create a macro or so beforehand?

Any guitar player out there who can share his experience?

Thanks a lot again!
MBP 3,1 2.2GHz +++ OSX 10.8 +++ Finale 2014

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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:29 pm

Sapphire wrote:…I'm talking about a vertical bracket whose horizontal end pin length can be customized, so as to indicate to players the length of the barré – one, two, three or more notes…
Since I only know little of guitar notation, I am in doubt about the last part of your description.

When you are talking about “the length of the barré – one, two, three or more notes”, then are you talking about notes in a chord (= one, two, three or more notes vertically below each other)?

Or are you talking about notes in a melody (= one, two, three or more notes horizontally next to each other)?

In Other Words:
Is “the length of the barré” a vertical length, or a horizontal length?

Take a look at the attached Finale 2014 document.
Attachments
GuitarBarre.musx.zip
(12.76 KiB) Downloaded 289 times
Mac OS X 12.6.9 (Monterey), Finale user since 1996

Sapphire
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Finale Version: Finale 2014
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Post by Sapphire » Sat Jun 20, 2015 6:10 pm

Peter, the file you sent looks promising! Even the vertical end pin at the right is there.

I was talking about the melody, but taking a closer view I should indeed be able to adapt its vertical depth, too. Length and depth cover the area containing the notes that are part of the barré.

Now, I can indeed do all in Sibelius what you did, but it means a lot of manual work that can't be saved as a macro or user preset. Can you point me to doing this in Finale? Finale looks much more like Illustrator than Sibelius does… Can I add numerals to it (ideally – just dreaming aloud – you pick the start and the end note and click "add barré" and complete the whole thing by adding the finger and / or the fret) ?
I would want to add left hand fingering (1,2,3,4) to the left of the bracket and / or the position/fret above in Roman numerals.

Thanks so far and regards!
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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:42 pm

1) In the document I attached, I used the Smart Shape Tool’s sub-tool Custom Line Tool.
I created a custom line with a hook at each end.
Then I entered two instances of this custom line, one vertical instance, and one horizontal instance.
While viewing at a high zoom percentage I nudged the two custom lines in position so that they connected perfectly.

2) Both fingerings and Roman numerals can be added.
My guess is that the Expression Tool is the easier solution.
See the attached files.
I have also attached a PDF version of the Finale document - in case you do not have the same text fonts.

3) Sorry, I do not know of any “automatic” solutions that will do all the work for you (add barré, add fingering, ad fret number).
Attachments
GuitarFingering.pdf.zip
(64.98 KiB) Downloaded 284 times
GuitarFingering.musx.zip
(13.23 KiB) Downloaded 260 times
Mac OS X 12.6.9 (Monterey), Finale user since 1996

Sapphire
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Post by Sapphire » Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:52 am

I do not know of any “automatic” solutions that will do all the work for you
Peter, I don't expect the software to do the thinking for me, I wonder however if it provides the possibility to group two lines together, if possible altogether with two pre-defined* text fields, one at the left of my assembled bracket, one above, and save the lot as a user template, so I can use them whenever I consider it appropriate to do so – and above all: saving me the necessity to do all the work over and over again.

* pre-defined: ready-set formatting à la Illustrator or InDesign (e.g. display of Roman numerals for positions / frets when I enter Arabic numbers), pre-defined content à la Excel (i.e., fingering restriction to '0,1,2,3,4' and maybe 'T' for the Jimi finger) to avoid mistakes.

Does Finale provide anything that comes near? Some sort of grouping?
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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:01 pm

Sapphire wrote:…I wonder however if it provides the possibility to group two lines together, if possible altogether with two pre-defined* text fields, one at the left of my assembled bracket, one above, and save the lot as a user template, so I can use them whenever I consider it appropriate to do so – and above all: saving me the necessity to do all the work over and over again…
You can create lines in two ways:

1) A line can be created in the Shape Designer which is a drawing program inside Finale.
A shape can be “horizontally stretching itself” in the sense that is stretches out as the measure width is increased.
Or it can be “a fixed shape” in the sense that it behaves like a font character (= does not stretch itself horizontally).
You can use the same shape in many places in the score.
But if you at some place in the score need a slightly different shape, then you will have to make a duplicate copy of the shape, and edit the duplicate.

2) In the Smart Shape Tool there is a sub-tool called Custom Line Tool.
In my example I used the Custom Line Tool.
Unlike shapes created in the Shape Designer a smart shape (e. g. a custom line) is “individually adjustable” in the sense that you can place the same smart shape in many places in the score, and each instance of the smart shape can be adjusted individually, without affecting the other instances of the same smart shape.
Other examples of smart shapes are slurs and hairpins for crescendo/diminuendo.

Since you need the ability to adjust the line lengths individually, I think that the Smart Shape Tool’s sub-tool Custom Line Tool is the better solution.
Unfortunately there is no way to “group” two smart shapes together - although that feature would be nice to have.
Perhaps we can get that feature in a later Finale version.
The only way to combine two smart shapes is nudging the smart shapes into precise position while viewing at a high zoom percentage.

You can include text in a custom line, but the text will always have the same orientation as the line:
A horizontal line will have horizontal text orientation.
A vertical line will have vertical text orientation.
If you need horizontal text orientation on a vertical custom line, then you will have to add the text as a separate item, e. g. with the Expression Tool. The line and the text will not be “grouped” together.

Sapphire wrote:……pre-defined: ready-set formatting à la Illustrator or InDesign (e.g. display of Roman numerals for positions / frets when I enter Arabic numbers), pre-defined content à la Excel (i.e., fingering restriction to '0,1,2,3,4' and maybe 'T' for the Jimi finger) to avoid mistakes.

Does Finale provide anything that comes near? Some sort of grouping?
You can not type Arabic numbers, and have them automatically translated into Roman numerals.
That is not a feature in Finale.
Generally the Finale user can create all sorts of custom elements, but everything must be created, either by the user or by a plug-in.

You will have to learn the “Finalespeak”.
Predefined, ready-set formatting in Finale comes in two variations:
* Templates
* Libraries

A template is a document that can be used for creating new documents.
All new documents created from the template will have the same contents as the template, e. g. page margins and custom items (like expressions or articulations or custom lines).
You can have as many templates as you need.

A library is a file that can be loaded into a document.
A library can contain document settings and custom elements (at the same time, in the same library).
You can save as many libraries as you need.

You can create custom, user defined items, and have these items included in a template so that all new documents created from the template will contain your user defined items.

You can save libraries, and load those libraries into your documents.

I hope that this is clear?
If not, ask again.
Mac OS X 12.6.9 (Monterey), Finale user since 1996

Sapphire
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:06 pm
Finale Version: Finale 2014
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Post by Sapphire » Tue Jun 23, 2015 11:19 am

It'l take me some time to get acquainted with the Finale workflow, but I'm sure further questions will arise as I move towards the features your mentioned (especially the 'Shape Designer').

Thanks a lot for your effort, time and valuable input so far!

Wolf
MBP 3,1 2.2GHz +++ OSX 10.8 +++ Finale 2014

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