How do I set Harmonic minor scales in Finale?
Moderators: Peter Thomsen, miker
-
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:53 am
- Finale Version: Finale 2014
- Operating System: Windows
I am composing a tune in the scale of C minor. So I get: C, D, E♭, F, G, A♭, and B♭. Its key signature consists of three flats.
But that is the natural C minor scale. What I want is to raise the 7th to get the Harmonic minor scale; the B flat gets raised to a B.
SO rather than raising the 7th every time I get a B flat I would rather start from the outset with it being so; then it just is.
How do I set this? This is driving me NUTS. I would PAY someone to tell me how to set it.
But that is the natural C minor scale. What I want is to raise the 7th to get the Harmonic minor scale; the B flat gets raised to a B.
SO rather than raising the 7th every time I get a B flat I would rather start from the outset with it being so; then it just is.
How do I set this? This is driving me NUTS. I would PAY someone to tell me how to set it.
- motet
- Posts: 8292
- Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
- Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
- Operating System: Windows
I recall seeing such non-standard key signatures in Bartok's Microcosmos, but I don't know if it's strictly for pedagogical purposes or an Eastern European thing. Finale provides an arcane method for non-standard key signatures, so I guess someone must want it, but I agree with Ron it's probably not a good idea. If you insist then I would read up on it in the manual. I think I would display a natural sign where the B-flat should be if Finale can do that.
- Peter Thomsen
- Posts: 6626
- Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:47 pm
- Finale Version: Finale v27.4
- Operating System: Mac
elfoftides,
Indeed it can be done in Finale, but we need more info from you:
1) What should be the order of the accidentals? I mean in the key signature.
- perhaps A♭, E♭, B♮ ?
2) What clefs are you using in your document?
- Treble clef?
- Bass clef?
- Alto clef?
- Tenor clef?
- or?
Indeed it can be done in Finale, but we need more info from you:
1) What should be the order of the accidentals? I mean in the key signature.
- perhaps A♭, E♭, B♮ ?
2) What clefs are you using in your document?
- Treble clef?
- Bass clef?
- Alto clef?
- Tenor clef?
- or?
Mac OS X 12.6.9 (Monterey), Finale user since 1996
-
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:53 am
- Finale Version: Finale 2014
- Operating System: Windows
"What you are asking for is completely non-standard. It can be done by creating a custom key signature, but why would you do this? It will only serve to confuse players. Nowhere in the literature have I ever seen a key signature of C, D, E♭, F, G, A♭, and Bn to mean C minor."
Um. I am not composing for players.
I compose electronically. I compose in Finale and then put the score into Fruity Loops for production. [yes I know everyone says to me do it all in fruity but I can't; I need to compose with notes.] It would make life easier for me rather than having to remember each time to raise a 7th.
Sigh.
Um. I am not composing for players.
I compose electronically. I compose in Finale and then put the score into Fruity Loops for production. [yes I know everyone says to me do it all in fruity but I can't; I need to compose with notes.] It would make life easier for me rather than having to remember each time to raise a 7th.
Sigh.
- Jay Emmes
- Posts: 227
- Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:29 pm
- Finale Version: 25.4.1.164
- Operating System: Mac
Why not simply use the key of g minor for the signatures but write as though it were in c minor? If it's not the notation that matters who cares about a raised seven?
Running Finale 25.4.1.163 in OS X 10.11.6
- motet
- Posts: 8292
- Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
- Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
- Operating System: Windows
Right--no conventional key signature is going to include both B natural and A flat.
This thread shows, I think, that one can't make assumptions (as I did) about what people are doing and why.
elfoftides,my advice would be to take Peter Thomsen up on his kind offer to help and supply the information he requested to be able to help you.
This thread shows, I think, that one can't make assumptions (as I did) about what people are doing and why.
elfoftides,my advice would be to take Peter Thomsen up on his kind offer to help and supply the information he requested to be able to help you.
Even for writing minor piece music I find both the "standard" method (key signature same as relative major; sharpen steps 6 and 7 as needed) or the "baroque" method (key signature 1 flat less that the last method but I'm not sure about sharp keys) and flatten the 7th as needed and sharpen the 6th as needed. Both seem to take about the same number of accidentals. I use the standard method as I expect everyone to be able to read this notation.
Note that for much "classical" music, the minor mode is a single unit; it isn't treated as having three scales (jazz harmony is different). One has a single scale with two mutable steps. There are tendencies for these steps but these are often ignored if the composer thinks that sounds better.
The point isn't having to raise the 7th; it's when to use a raised 7th and raised 6th. The general tendencies are reasonably easy.
Ascending scale passages with tonic harmony tend to raise steps 6 and 7.
Descending scale passages with tonic harmony tend to use lowered steps 6 and 7.
Either ascending or descending scale passages with dominant harmony tend to use raised 6 and 7. (Common exception below.)
Either ascending or descending scale passages with subdominant harmony tend to lowered steps 6 and 7.
Arpeggios of a dominant ninth use the lowered 6 and raised 7 (one gets 4 scale steps in a row with a ninth chord).
The upper neighbor of step 5 is always the lowered 6.
The augmented III chord is almost non-existent.
In instrumental music, the scale passages using lowered 6 and raised 7 are fairly common; they are often meant to sound exotic.
All the above may occur in the same piece or even the same passage.
Note that for much "classical" music, the minor mode is a single unit; it isn't treated as having three scales (jazz harmony is different). One has a single scale with two mutable steps. There are tendencies for these steps but these are often ignored if the composer thinks that sounds better.
The point isn't having to raise the 7th; it's when to use a raised 7th and raised 6th. The general tendencies are reasonably easy.
Ascending scale passages with tonic harmony tend to raise steps 6 and 7.
Descending scale passages with tonic harmony tend to use lowered steps 6 and 7.
Either ascending or descending scale passages with dominant harmony tend to use raised 6 and 7. (Common exception below.)
Either ascending or descending scale passages with subdominant harmony tend to lowered steps 6 and 7.
Arpeggios of a dominant ninth use the lowered 6 and raised 7 (one gets 4 scale steps in a row with a ninth chord).
The upper neighbor of step 5 is always the lowered 6.
The augmented III chord is almost non-existent.
In instrumental music, the scale passages using lowered 6 and raised 7 are fairly common; they are often meant to sound exotic.
All the above may occur in the same piece or even the same passage.
- zuill
- Posts: 4418
- Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:35 pm
- Finale Version: Finale 2011-v26.3.1
- Operating System: Windows
The method of making a Non-standard signature might be difficult for those unfamiliar with it.
A good workaround: Use the standard C minor signature, then use the search and replace feature after entering all the Bb's to change them to B naturals. This takes just a few seconds.
Zuill
P.S.: Well, it took about 30 seconds, since I haven't done it in awhile. Set the transposition to Augmented 2nd up and you're good to go. The utility is found in the Note Mover Tool.
A good workaround: Use the standard C minor signature, then use the search and replace feature after entering all the Bb's to change them to B naturals. This takes just a few seconds.
Zuill
P.S.: Well, it took about 30 seconds, since I haven't done it in awhile. Set the transposition to Augmented 2nd up and you're good to go. The utility is found in the Note Mover Tool.
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
- zuill
- Posts: 4418
- Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:35 pm
- Finale Version: Finale 2011-v26.3.1
- Operating System: Windows
I added that information in my P.S. That seems like an odd place for that utility. But it is quite useful at times.
Zuill
Zuill
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
- motet
- Posts: 8292
- Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
- Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
- Operating System: Windows
I looked through it this morning and didn't find such, so I was mistaken. I did find one where there was a two-piano piece where the "teacher's part" was in E--four normal sharps--but the student's part only had F# and G# in the key signature. But I think this was because the part has no C's or D's. Perhaps he though this was less confusing to a beginner. Also, often with sharp keys, he'll write the F# on the bottom space of the treble clef instead of the top line, I'm guessing because the F#s in those simple pieces are in that register. I guess Finale could be used to make a new edition!motet wrote:I recall seeing such non-standard key signatures in Bartok's Microcosmos...
- MikeHalloran
- Posts: 711
- Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:56 am
- Finale Version: 27
- Operating System: Mac
Many years ago, I remember playing a Bartok piece with a single C# in the key signature. Don't recall the name.
Oh my... That could have been when I was in San Jose Youth Symphony over 45 years ago.
Oh my... That could have been when I was in San Jose Youth Symphony over 45 years ago.
Mike Halloran
Finale 27.4.1, SmartScore X2 Pro, GPO5 & World Instruments
MacOS Ventura 14.5 (public beta); 2023 Studio M2 Ultra, 192G RAM, 8TB; 2021 MBAir M1
NotePerformer4, Dorico 5, Overture, Notion 6, DP 11, Logic Pro
Finale 27.4.1, SmartScore X2 Pro, GPO5 & World Instruments
MacOS Ventura 14.5 (public beta); 2023 Studio M2 Ultra, 192G RAM, 8TB; 2021 MBAir M1
NotePerformer4, Dorico 5, Overture, Notion 6, DP 11, Logic Pro
- MikeHalloran
- Posts: 711
- Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:56 am
- Finale Version: 27
- Operating System: Mac
Yes. All I remember now is that backwards F clef for the bass that many English and East European scores used and that single sharp in the 2nd space. If not SJYS, it could have been the city college orchestra—I wasn't a member but often played with them when they needed another cello or bass. Same conductor. Eugene Stoia was from Romania and we played a lot of Bartok.motet wrote:An orchestra piece?
Mike Halloran
Finale 27.4.1, SmartScore X2 Pro, GPO5 & World Instruments
MacOS Ventura 14.5 (public beta); 2023 Studio M2 Ultra, 192G RAM, 8TB; 2021 MBAir M1
NotePerformer4, Dorico 5, Overture, Notion 6, DP 11, Logic Pro
Finale 27.4.1, SmartScore X2 Pro, GPO5 & World Instruments
MacOS Ventura 14.5 (public beta); 2023 Studio M2 Ultra, 192G RAM, 8TB; 2021 MBAir M1
NotePerformer4, Dorico 5, Overture, Notion 6, DP 11, Logic Pro
-
- Posts: 1307
- Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:59 am
- Finale Version: Finale 27
- Operating System: Mac
Are you using a MIDI keyboard to enter the notes? If so, then you can just play a B natural.elfoftides wrote:SO rather than raising the 7th every time I get a B flat I would rather start from the outset with it being so; then it just is.
How do I set this? This is driving me NUTS. I would PAY someone to tell me how to set it.
- motet
- Posts: 8292
- Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
- Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
- Operating System: Windows
As reported in another thread, I made a cookbook that can create the requested key signature here. The zip file is the documentation.
- Attachments
-
- NonTradKey.zip
- (97.67 KiB) Downloaded 188 times
-
- harmin.musx
- (85.06 KiB) Downloaded 171 times
-
- 0188.png (28.22 KiB) Viewed 10920 times