Finale Forum

I am composing a tune in the scale of C minor. So I get: C, D, E♭, F, G, A♭, and B♭. Its key signature consists of three flats.

But that is the natural C minor scale. What I want is to raise the 7th to get the Harmonic minor scale; the B flat gets raised to a B.
SO rather than raising the 7th every time I get a B flat I would rather start from the outset with it being so; then it just is.

How do I set this? This is driving me NUTS. I would PAY someone to tell me how to set it.

I recall seeing such non-standard key signatures in Bartok's Microcosmos, but I don't know if it's strictly for pedagogical purposes or an Eastern European thing. Finale provides an arcane method for non-standard key signatures, so I guess someone must want it, but I agree with Ron it's probably not a good idea. If you insist then I would read up on it in the manual. I think I would display a natural sign where the B-flat should be if Finale can do that.

elfoftides,

Indeed it can be done in Finale, but we need more info from you:

1) What should be the order of the accidentals? I mean in the key signature.
- perhaps A♭, E♭, B♮ ?

2) What clefs are you using in your document?
- Treble clef?
- Bass clef?
- Alto clef?
- Tenor clef?
- or?

"What you are asking for is completely non-standard. It can be done by creating a custom key signature, but why would you do this? It will only serve to confuse players. Nowhere in the literature have I ever seen a key signature of C, D, E♭, F, G, A♭, and Bn to mean C minor."

Um. I am not composing for players.
I compose electronically. I compose in Finale and then put the score into Fruity Loops for production. [yes I know everyone says to me do it all in fruity but I can't; I need to compose with notes.] It would make life easier for me rather than having to remember each time to raise a 7th.

Sigh.

Why not simply use the key of g minor for the signatures but write as though it were in c minor? If it's not the notation that matters who cares about a raised seven?

Right--no conventional key signature is going to include both B natural and A flat.

This thread shows, I think, that one can't make assumptions (as I did) about what people are doing and why.

elfoftides,my advice would be to take Peter Thomsen up on his kind offer to help and supply the information he requested to be able to help you.

Even for writing minor piece music I find both the "standard" method (key signature same as relative major; sharpen steps 6 and 7 as needed) or the "baroque" method (key signature 1 flat less that the last method but I'm not sure about sharp keys) and flatten the 7th as needed and sharpen the 6th as needed. Both seem to take about the same number of accidentals. I use the standard method as I expect everyone to be able to read this notation.

Note that for much "classical" music, the minor mode is a single unit; it isn't treated as having three scales (jazz harmony is different). One has a single scale with two mutable steps. There are tendencies for these steps but these are often ignored if the composer thinks that sounds better.

The point isn't having to raise the 7th; it's when to use a raised 7th and raised 6th. The general tendencies are reasonably easy.

Ascending scale passages with tonic harmony tend to raise steps 6 and 7.
Descending scale passages with tonic harmony tend to use lowered steps 6 and 7.
Either ascending or descending scale passages with dominant harmony tend to use raised 6 and 7. (Common exception below.)
Either ascending or descending scale passages with subdominant harmony tend to lowered steps 6 and 7.
Arpeggios of a dominant ninth use the lowered 6 and raised 7 (one gets 4 scale steps in a row with a ninth chord).
The upper neighbor of step 5 is always the lowered 6.
The augmented III chord is almost non-existent.
In instrumental music, the scale passages using lowered 6 and raised 7 are fairly common; they are often meant to sound exotic.
All the above may occur in the same piece or even the same passage.

The method of making a Non-standard signature might be difficult for those unfamiliar with it.

A good workaround: Use the standard C minor signature, then use the search and replace feature after entering all the Bb's to change them to B naturals. This takes just a few seconds.

Zuill

P.S.: Well, it took about 30 seconds, since I haven't done it in awhile. Set the transposition to Augmented 2nd up and you're good to go. The utility is found in the Note Mover Tool.

Good idea! I assume you mean from the Note Mover tool, which is bizarre in its own right. There is a page in the manual, fortunately.

I added that information in my P.S. That seems like an odd place for that utility. But it is quite useful at times.

Zuill

Ronald J Brown wrote:G minor has a Bb in it--which is what our poster is trying to avoid.

Ah yes, stupid me. Mind fixed on two flats. Sorry!

motet wrote:I recall seeing such non-standard key signatures in Bartok's Microcosmos...

I looked through it this morning and didn't find such, so I was mistaken. I did find one where there was a two-piano piece where the "teacher's part" was in E--four normal sharps--but the student's part only had F# and G# in the key signature. But I think this was because the part has no C's or D's. Perhaps he though this was less confusing to a beginner. Also, often with sharp keys, he'll write the F# on the bottom space of the treble clef instead of the top line, I'm guessing because the F#s in those simple pieces are in that register. I guess Finale could be used to make a new edition!

Many years ago, I remember playing a Bartok piece with a single C# in the key signature. Don't recall the name.

Oh my... That could have been when I was in San Jose Youth Symphony over 45 years ago.

An orchestra piece?

motet wrote:An orchestra piece?

Yes. All I remember now is that backwards F clef for the bass that many English and East European scores used and that single sharp in the 2nd space. If not SJYS, it could have been the city college orchestra—I wasn't a member but often played with them when they needed another cello or bass. Same conductor. Eugene Stoia was from Romania and we played a lot of Bartok.

elfoftides wrote:SO rather than raising the 7th every time I get a B flat I would rather start from the outset with it being so; then it just is.
How do I set this? This is driving me NUTS. I would PAY someone to tell me how to set it.

Are you using a MIDI keyboard to enter the notes? If so, then you can just play a B natural.

As reported in another thread, I made a cookbook that can create the requested key signature here. The zip file is the documentation.