Polyrhythms, Barlines, Multiple Meters, etc.

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hthaw
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:54 am
Finale Version: 25
Operating System: Mac

Post by hthaw » Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:47 am

Hi All -

I'm trying to wrap my head around what seems to be a major flaw in Finale, specifically the inability to write contrasting, independent rhythms.
If I have one staff playing a bar of 4/4 and another staff playing a bar of 5/4 - it plays "5 in the time of 4" - the two measures take up the same amount of time and coincide with each other. This is instead of a so-called "staggered barline", where the two staffs would only line up every 20 bars or so, maintaining their independent meters.

I understand there are dozens upon dozens of questions about this in the Finale forums.
What I'd like to know is:
1. Since many of the previous posts date back as far as the mid-2000s, is this something that can be better dealt with in Finale 25?
2. Does Finale have plans to ever rectify this issue?
3. Is there a notation software that people use to write music in this manner?

Thanks


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Peter Thomsen
Posts: 6603
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:47 pm
Finale Version: Finale v27.4
Operating System: Mac

Post by Peter Thomsen » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:39 am

hthaw wrote:… I'm trying to wrap my head around what seems to be a major flaw in Finale, specifically the inability to write contrasting, independent rhythms …
hthaw wrote:… If I have one staff playing a bar of 4/4 and another staff playing a bar of 5/4 - it plays "5 in the time of 4" - the two measures take up the same amount of time and coincide with each other. This is instead of a so-called "staggered barline", where the two staffs would only line up every 20 bars or so, maintaining their independent meters …
If I understand you correctly, you are working on a Finale document with “contrasting, independent rhythms”, right?

What is not clear to me, is in what way the rhythms should be contrasting and independent ?!?

* Do you need the barlines to line up so that the quarter note speed is independent (= the measures take up the same amount of time and coincide with each other)?

* Or do you need the beats to line up so that the barlines are independent (= the quarter note speed is the same in both staves)?

* Or should the two staves be independent in both quarter note speed and measure duration (= fully independent tempo, and e. g. accelerando in one staff while constant tempo in the other)?

All these three layouts can be done in Finale - via various different tricks/workarounds.

Now to your questions:

1. If I recall correctly, there have not been any changes in the Time Signature Tool for the last 20 years.
The tricks/workarounds for the layouts mentioned above are the same in Finale 25.

2. MakeMusic has a {feature request forum} on its own web site.
The folks from MakeMusic contribute regularly in that feature request forum - with info about the development plans for future Finale versions.
Have you been looking in that feature request forum?
URL:
https://makemusic.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/ ... t_activity

3. Music notation with contrasting, independent rhythms is a demanding task - not easy and simple in any program.
I suppose that you know - or know of - the other music notation programs, and the difficulties in them when it comes to contrasting, independent rhythms?
Dorico looks promising, but it is not yet fully developed.
Mac OS X 12.6.9 (Monterey), Finale user since 1996

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motet
Posts: 8229
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
Operating System: Windows

Post by motet » Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:58 am

I think you mean it lines up every 20 beats, not measures.

Would you want the beats to line up vertically (which results in extra space in one part where the other has a barline)
0402.png
0402.png (106.6 KiB) Viewed 3458 times
or not?
0403.png
0403.png (100.58 KiB) Viewed 3458 times

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Jay Emmes
Posts: 227
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:29 pm
Finale Version: 25.4.1.164
Operating System: Mac

Post by Jay Emmes » Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:46 pm

If the quarter note in both time signatures has the same length (beats per minute), they have to line up.
Running Finale 25.4.1.163 in OS X 10.11.6

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Peter Thomsen
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Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:47 pm
Finale Version: Finale v27.4
Operating System: Mac

Post by Peter Thomsen » Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:30 pm

Jay Emmes wrote:If the quarter note in both time signatures has the same length (beats per minute), they have to line up.
Obviously it does not make sense to have measure numbers when the barlines are staggered.
Imagine the confusion during a rehearsal: Play from measure 42.

Instead you could use rehearsal letters: Play from letter K.

Anyway, here is a way to do it.

* See the attached Finale document.
Attachments
StaggeredBarlines.musx
(14.87 KiB) Downloaded 273 times
Mac OS X 12.6.9 (Monterey), Finale user since 1996

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