natural sign above staff
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- miker
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This is something I haven't seen before. It's a natural sign above a B in a staff, where there is a Bb in the key signature. Does this mean it's a B natural? This is from a 1544 piece, so I wonder if that's the way it was done, back then.
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Looks like an editorial natural to me. The editor thinks it should be a b-natural, but it wasn't notated as such in the source, so the accidental is placed above to indicate editorial intervention.
- N Grossingink
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If you can read the other parts and play the example, it should be clear which note is correct. From what I can see, it's a B natural.
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- Perotinus
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Yes. Everyone here is essentially correct. It is an editorial accidental, that would have been included in a performance of this earlier music as a matter of course, based on the performance practice and theoretical teachings of the time. These types of editorial accidentals in modern editions are frequently known (although somewhat incorrectly) as musica ficta. Here's Wikipedia's explanation:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musica_ficta
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musica_ficta
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It's very interesting that in the Renaissance musicians often raised the leading-tone to the tonic in cadences. B nat leading to C in this case, not Bb to C. By doing so they created dominant cadences (here G C, or B-5/D C), foreshadowing the very dominant-oriented harmony of later centuries.
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- John Ruggero
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Nice point Anders. As you know, the Schenkerian view is that the two tones that lead most naturally to the tonic for endings are the "upper leading tone" (supertonic) and the "lower leading tone" (leading tone). They fortunately form a consonance so that two people can sing them together to produce a stable entity to lead to and converge on the tonic for endings. If one needs to add a third voice to those two to form a larger consonant entity using only notes in the key, there is only one choice: the fifth note of the scale. Thus was born the dominant triad out of the actual practical experience of musicians over centuries. If the lower leading tone is a half step from the tonic, the consonant entity thus formed is a major triad, which is acoustically more consonant than the minor triad. Thus the tendency to use the sharped lower leading tone.
Last edited by John Ruggero on Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Except that musica ficta or ficta for short, has become the common term, correct or not.Perotinus wrote:Yes. Everyone here is essentially correct. It is an editorial accidental, that would have been included in a performance of this earlier music as a matter of course, based on the performance practice and theoretical teachings of the time. These types of editorial accidentals in modern editions are frequently known (although somewhat incorrectly) as musica ficta. Here's Wikipedia's explanation:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musica_ficta
Where I disagree is in calling it editorial. It’s not. If truly editorial than you put it on the staff as an editor or arranger would.
If noting the urtext of a renaissance tune, you place above to indicate the correct sung or played pitch (whether a guess or knowledge of actual practice can be debated, of course) as opposed to the pitch that’s notated. I’m on my iPad at the moment but will fire up my iMac and post a Christmas song that is sometimes notated with ficta and often isn’t (editorial).
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Riu Riu Chiu pg 1
The known copy from the 16th C.
New Oxford Book of Carols pg1 with ficta
My edition pg1
It's only 2 pages but, because of attachment and pixel sizes, I'm only able to upload pgs 1. If anyone wants, I'll upload the other page of all three.
The known copy from the 16th C.
New Oxford Book of Carols pg1 with ficta
My edition pg1
It's only 2 pages but, because of attachment and pixel sizes, I'm only able to upload pgs 1. If anyone wants, I'll upload the other page of all three.
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For those who are interested, here are the two dominant forms used in the Renaissance:
And of course it should be Bm-5/D, not B-5/D as I wrote earlier. As I'm used to, in chord symbols the o refers to the seventh, in harmonic analysis to the fifth.
And of course it should be Bm-5/D, not B-5/D as I wrote earlier. As I'm used to, in chord symbols the o refers to the seventh, in harmonic analysis to the fifth.
Last edited by Anders Hedelin on Sun Sep 08, 2019 7:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- David Ward
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FWIW I seem to remember (it's a while since I've either listened or looked at a score) that these are two common variants of a Renaissance cadence (Ockeghem, Obrecht et al ).
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David, of course you are right - about the early Renaissance, app. 15th century. I was thinking more of the 16th century. Josquin, Palestrina fx. The dominants of that time are 'astonishingly' similar to those of later, dominant-dominated periods.
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This is perhaps rather OT, then perhaps not entirely, since the topic is at least partly about the raising of cadential leading tones. What 'astonishes' me in 16th century music is this: The harmony of the centuries up to the Baroque is commonly called 'modal', meaning that the connection and progression of harmonies are generally looser and freer, less directional and less predictable than in later 'tonal' harmony. But then there are these dominant cadences in 16th century music, with all the typical direction of tonal harmony, dominant>tonic!, no question about it. An intriguing music 'bipolarity', modal vs. tonal. Later periods show which side of the bipolarity won (for a couple of centuries anyway).
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- Perotinus
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Mike Halloran,Where I disagree is in calling it editorial. It’s not. If truly editorial than you put it on the staff as an editor or arranger would.
I was using the term "editorial" to refer to something added by an editor/transcriber that is not in the original source. This is how the term is usually understood in scholarly/academic editions, where one is often at pains to be transparent as to exactly what elements of the source have been modified. It seems we have contrasting connotations for the term. I would be very interested to know your take on it.
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I guess it depends if the "editor" is attempting to put out a scholarly edition showing the original ("urtext") and making a distinction about what he or she added, or instead making a performing edition and not worrying about any of that (see Longo's edition of the Scarlatti sonatas). Both kinds are editorial changes.
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The musica ficta also is about other, sometimes more subtle things, than obvious cadential dominants. Here's one edition of Josquin's Milles Regretz, one that may quite possibly follow the original (apart from the barlines and the modern clefs):
(The clefs are: Treble, treble, modern tenor and bass.)
Here's another edition with the raised, editorial, leading tone, not to the tonic, but to the minor third. (From what I've heard, ending on a minor third is very unusual for this time, but typical of Josquin.)
(The clefs are: Soprano (C on the lowest line), alto, tenor and bass.)
Of course I' can't tell which is the 'right' solution - f or f#. I just wanted to share an example.
(The clefs are: Treble, treble, modern tenor and bass.)
Here's another edition with the raised, editorial, leading tone, not to the tonic, but to the minor third. (From what I've heard, ending on a minor third is very unusual for this time, but typical of Josquin.)
(The clefs are: Soprano (C on the lowest line), alto, tenor and bass.)
Of course I' can't tell which is the 'right' solution - f or f#. I just wanted to share an example.
Last edited by Anders Hedelin on Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- Perotinus
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This is an interesting case, and in the latter example, the F# seems prompted from the idea when (from Wikipedia on "musica ficta"): "At cadences and other places where two voice parts proceed to an octave or unison, singers normally approached the perfect interval from the closest imperfect interval; when the closest imperfect interval did not occur naturally in the music, singers created it either by adding a sharp to the voice rising by a whole step or by adding a flat to the voice descending by a whole step."
In this case though, the F# creates a tritone (though only in passing) with the C in the alto. Perhaps it is that which argued against the use of the F# in the first example.
Interesting questions with multiple solutions.
In this case though, the F# creates a tritone (though only in passing) with the C in the alto. Perhaps it is that which argued against the use of the F# in the first example.
Interesting questions with multiple solutions.
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From what I've learned of Renaissance (16th century) theory, the consonance/dissonance of a chord was determined by the intervals created from the bass tone upward. If those were consonant in themselves, so the chord was. So, minor third plus major sixth constitute a consonant chord, regardless of the tritone between the two upper voices. (Needless to say this chord wouldn't have been consonant 'enough' to form an ending in a cadence, more typically it would be the next to last, 'dominant' chord.)
Or, as in the second Josquin example, a more unusual transit, or cadential, chord to another relatively more consonant chord ('relatively' because minor chords were not regarded as consonant as major chords at the time).
Or, as in the second Josquin example, a more unusual transit, or cadential, chord to another relatively more consonant chord ('relatively' because minor chords were not regarded as consonant as major chords at the time).
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- Perotinus
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I don't know whether I agree that the tritone you give below between the upper two parts would have been acceptable as a simultaneity (i.e., all notes attacking at one time without passing gestures or a suspension). I would expect an editor to revise the tritone here to a perfect fourth by sharping the C with an accidental above the staff. This would then generate a so-called "double-leading-tone" cadence, something one sees prominently in the 14th century, and sometimes in the (early) 15th, if I remember well. The diminished chord would then resolve at a cadence as G-d-g. The attached example is from the end of a 14th-century motet by Philippe de Vitry (clefs from top are treble, treble, modern tenor).
At least by the early 15th century, with the addition of a fourth, lower (bass) voice, where we begin to see the proto-V-I progression, that added bass in this case would have been D, and the C(#) in the second part from the top would be a D in the second half of the penultimate measure. For a discussion of this, See Richard Taruskin, The Oxford History of Music, vol. 1, pp. 468-469.
At least by the early 15th century, with the addition of a fourth, lower (bass) voice, where we begin to see the proto-V-I progression, that added bass in this case would have been D, and the C(#) in the second part from the top would be a D in the second half of the penultimate measure. For a discussion of this, See Richard Taruskin, The Oxford History of Music, vol. 1, pp. 468-469.
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There happened a lot with the music between the 15th and 16th century.
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I did read the same thing as Anders did about measuring dissonance above the bass in the Renaissance. I do not remember where. It was some historical book but I don't remember the actual topic.
One amusing thing I have found (and have been told by others) is that is't not too hard to accompany music from the Baroque to the pop eras at sight. I know that I would accompany singers without my knowing the song and I could generally get things right. This is very difficult with Renaissance music. The chord connections are less structured. There's less "function" in the pieces, even songs. (Of course once a folia or passamezzo or the like occurs, it's pretty easy, like blues.)
One amusing thing I have found (and have been told by others) is that is't not too hard to accompany music from the Baroque to the pop eras at sight. I know that I would accompany singers without my knowing the song and I could generally get things right. This is very difficult with Renaissance music. The chord connections are less structured. There's less "function" in the pieces, even songs. (Of course once a folia or passamezzo or the like occurs, it's pretty easy, like blues.)