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How to assign cresc. from silence with playback?

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How to assign cresc. from silence with playback?

Postby Djard » Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:31 pm

I see nothing in the dynamics panel of Expressions to indicate a crescendo must start from silence. I suppose I could type in "niente" and fiddle with the playback settings, but surely Finale has an existing protocol. I won't be thrilled if I have to use Shape Designer to create a symbol then find a way to have it make playback start from silence. Anybody run into this problem?
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Re: How to assign cresc. from silence with playback?

Postby Peter Thomsen » Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:18 am

Sorry, Finale does not have "a protocol" for beginning from silence.

A crescendo in Finale can begin from a low dynamic, but it can not begin from silence.
You can assign an expression that begins from a very low dynamic, and you can hide that expression.
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Re: How to assign cresc. from silence with playback?

Postby Djard » Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:47 am

Elaine Gould in her worthy Behind Bars (p. 108) asserts that a small circle is placed and touching the beginning of the hairpin of a crescendo marking to indicate the niente or al niente (fade to "nothing) of a diminuendo. If Finale offers no such option then it falls short of accommodating all the needs of a classical music composer. But the program is so powerful I can't imagine not finding a way to create such an indication.

Is there something better than using the text tool to type in an "O"?
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Re: How to assign cresc. from silence with playback?

Postby Peter Thomsen » Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:03 am

Oops, I am sorry.
I thought that you meant playback.
Now I understand that you mean layout.

It certainly would be nice to have a ready made Smart Shape hairpin with a small circle at the beginning.
And Finale users have requested that option for a long time.
But unfortunately Finale does not have the feature yet.

You can indeed create the {hairpin with a circle} in the Shape Designer, and attach it as an expression.
If you leave the option "Allow Horizontal Stretching" selected, then the expression will stretch with the measure.
Unfortunately the circle will get stretched, too, if you have drawn the circle with the Shape Designer's Ellipse Tool.
Solution: Add the circle with the Text Tool, using a font character circle.

Playback is a different beast.
You can make Human Playback take care of the crescendo, by setting the start and end dynamic.

To get crescendo without Human PLayback, use an Executable Shape.
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Re: How to assign cresc. from silence with playback?

Postby Djard » Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:53 pm

Thanks.
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Re: How to assign cresc. from silence with playback?

Postby Djard » Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:30 pm

I chose to use the Articulation Tool and add a small circle to the hairpin, selecting shape 59. This option preserves the indication in the event the measures altered or copied and pasted elswhere. If I use the Text Tool to add the "o" then it will be lost in such editing.

Unfortunately, setting the Key Velocity of "niente" to the start of this cresc. (or "al niente" to the end of a diminuendo) to zero still does not start from silence. With my speakers set to normal volume, a Key Velocity of zero is still very audible.

I tried quadruple piano...pianississississimo (pppp), but Aria Player plays the note more at pp, far from silent. I suppose I'll just have to live with it, unless someone can produce some magic.
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Re: How to assign cresc. from silence with playback?

Postby Peter Thomsen » Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:12 am

Djard wrote:…If I use the Text Tool to add the "o" then it will be lost in such editing…

Oops, my mistake.
I have expressed myself un-clearly.

When I wrote
"Add the circle with the Text Tool, using a font character circle",
I did not mean the Text Tool on the Main Tool Palette, but rather the Text (sub-)Tool inside the Shape Designer, so that the font character circle is a part of the shape.

If the circle is included in the shape, it will stick with the shape.
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Re: How to assign cresc. from silence with playback?

Postby Djard » Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:00 am

Thanks. You are amazing. If Finale is capable of doing it, you always manage to figure it out.
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Re: How to assign cresc. from silence with playback?

Postby csansom » Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:00 pm

Peter Thomsen wrote:You can indeed create the {hairpin with a circle} in the Shape Designer, and attach it as an expression.
If you leave the option "Allow Horizontal Stretching" selected, then the expression will stretch with the measure.
Unfortunately the circle will get stretched, too, if you have drawn the circle with the Shape Designer's Ellipse Tool.
Solution: Add the circle with the Text Tool, using a font character circle.


This is indeed a brilliant solution, with one drawback - it doesn't work over page breaks the way a smart shape does. Any ideas?
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Re: How to assign cresc. from silence with playback?

Postby Djard » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:29 pm

Maybe a broken hairpin with hidden dynamics for page break situations?
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Re: How to assign cresc. from silence with playback?

Postby csansom » Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:53 am

Hmm... hidden dynamics. How do I do that? Using the smart shape tool, if I right-click one part of a hairpin that goes over a page break and uncheck 'Show', the part on the other page is hidden too. I can't find any other way to achieve this by searching the on-line manual. Any clues?
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Re: How to assign cresc. from silence with playback?

Postby michelp » Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:28 pm

I think Djard suggested to use hidden expressions.
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Re: How to assign cresc. from silence with playback?

Postby csansom » Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:30 pm

Ah, ok. He actually said 'hidden dynamics', so I guess you're right - although a hairpin to me is a dynamic marking. Ho hum - back to the Shape Designer, everyone's favourite graphics program (not), to make a couple of broken hairpins. Not a huge job, just tedious, and it would be so much better if Finale would let us customise hairpins the way they do with lines.
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Re: How to assign cresc. from silence with playback?

Postby csansom » Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:36 pm

In any case, having to do it this way removes all the flexibility of smart shapes - if an Update Layout changes the page breaks I'm stuffed and have to rethink it. Sure, I have all my systems locked now, and I think an Update Layout at this stage is unlikely, but it's the principle that counts!

Anyway, thanks to Djard for helpful thoughts.
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Re: How to assign cresc. from silence with playback?

Postby clancyweeks » Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:45 pm

For playback using the Expression tool, create a new expression under the Dynamics category using whatever symbol you desire for the niente. Go to the Playback tab and set the starting dynamic to 1. Zero will use the default starting dynamic, so 1 is as low as you can go. I've tested this, and it is satisfactory for me. Keep in mind that in a live performance using a live musician with an analog instrument, there really is no such thing as "beginning from silence." Every note's attack, no matter the dynamic, will start from an actual audible sound (depending on distance from the performer). From there just add your hairpins and ending dynamic.
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Re: How to assign cresc. from silence with playback?

Postby csansom » Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:29 pm

Thanks for this, but playback is of no concern for me - I use DP for that exclusively. Good to know it can be done though. As for 'there really is no such thing as "beginning from silence"', strictly speaking of course you're quite correct, but all I can add is you haven’t heard my friend playing the clarinet in Messiaen's Quartet for the End of Time. :-)
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Re: How to assign cresc. from silence with playback?

Postby clancyweeks » Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:36 am

Yeah, I'm a clarinet player as well and can do the same thing. We are not the norm, however.
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