Finale 2012 key signature before clef = bad

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mcsugarfree
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Post by mcsugarfree » Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:57 pm

Hi.

A key signature is displaying _before_ a clef in one of my measures. Bad. I need the key signature to _follow_ the clef per normal conventions.

I've been working on a score that entails lists of clefs only (with no notes) to illustrate an article on a 16th century collection of songs for three voices (I want to be able to look at the clefs of each piece for the whole collection on one page). So lots of clef changes. A few of the pieces have a flat in _only one part_, so I've added flats to individual measures here and there (not to measure stacks, but only individual parts within measure stacks). Once or twice the key signature is appearing before the clef (as I note above).

Thoughts?

Thanks!


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miker
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Post by miker » Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:10 pm

We would probably need to see the document to troubleshoot it.

Please post the file, so we can have a look at it. In order to post a file on this forum, it must be compressed (zipped) and the total size must be under 100KB.
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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Sat Apr 12, 2014 12:41 am

A key signature change usually happens at the beginning of a measure, so I suppose that you are talking about a case where a measure begins with both a clef change and a key change, right?

In a such case the normal conventions say that the clef should display in smaller size before the barline (and the key should display after the barline).

An exception is the first measure of a system.
At the beginning of a system the clef should display in full size after the Left Barline (and the key should display after the clef).

Do you have all the clef/key changes at the beginning of a system?


By The Way:
I agree with Mike - we probably need to see an actual Finale 2012 .mus document.
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mcsugarfree
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Post by mcsugarfree » Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:41 pm

Thanks for the reply. The file is attached. Also, here is a screenshot. Measure 2 displays the "problem" I'm trying to fix--the key signature preceding the clef (measures 1 and 19 are okay because--coincidentally--they happen to be the first measure of the line). I cannot reformat this so that measure 2 ends up as the first measure of a line, obviously. [BTW, this file is designed to show the clefs of 39 three-part pieces from the 1590s]. Ideas? Thanks.
Attachments
Screen Shot 2014-04-13 at 4.19.38 PM.jpg
Screen Shot 2014-04-13 at 4.19.38 PM.jpg (84.52 KiB) Viewed 7499 times
Farmer celfs.mus.zip
(41.8 KiB) Downloaded 173 times
Last edited by mcsugarfree on Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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miker
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Post by miker » Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:58 pm

If you are posting from a computer, you should be able to upload an image file. From a tablet, you would have to go to Photobucket, or something similar.
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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:08 pm

mcsugarfree wrote:…The file is attached…
I looked at your attached document, and now I am really confused.
I have a lot of of questions, but I will get to that in a moment.


mcsugarfree wrote:…Measure 2 displays the "problem" I'm trying to fix--the key signature preceding the clef…
Actually it is “the other way around”:
You have forced the clef to go after the key signature by selecting the option “Place Clef After Barline”.
As I wrote in a previous post, normal conventions say that the clef should display in smaller size before the barline.

Now I understand that you are trying to do something, which is not music notation, but rather a survey of clefs and key signatures in some pieces from the 1590s.


mcsugarfree wrote:…I cannot reformat this so that measure 2 ends up as the first measure of a line, obviously…
Yes you can - by positioning many systems next to each other.
See the attached document.
Farmer celfs Fixed.mus.zip
(42.54 KiB) Downloaded 222 times

Now for my questions about your attached document (= Farmer celfs.mus):

1) You tell that there are 39 pieces.
And I can see that there are 39 measures.
But why are you numbering them with two measure number regions?
I can see that there is one region for the first 19 measures, and another region for the remaining measures.
Why do you not use only one measure number region for the entire document?

2) You tell that the 39 pieces are three-part pieces.
But why are you using five staves?
Why are you not using only three staves?

3) You told in a previous post that some of the pieces have a flat in only one part.
I suppose that it is because there are transposing instruments in the pieces, right?
What are the instrument transpositions, precisely?
Why are you displaying the key signature by selecting “Key Signature” as an Independent Element in the Staff Attributes?
Why are you not using staff styles with staff transpositions?

Please explain.

The better we understand, the better we can help you.
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jimdrum66
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Post by jimdrum66 » Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:22 pm

I am having the same problem. I am trying to make a quiz that uses a different clef and key signature for each measure. The key signature keeps going before the clef when I ask it to put the clef after the bar line. I understand that is the common musical usage, however, that is not what I want to do. How do I force Finale to put the clef before the key signature? I can use Finale 2011 or 2014.

I will upload an example.
Secondary Leading Tone Review.jpg
Please see the example.
Secondary Leading Tone Review.jpg (30.97 KiB) Viewed 7219 times
Thanks,
Jim

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miker
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Post by miker » Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:38 pm

I did it by making the real barline invisible, and creating a false barline with the Expression tool.
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clef.png
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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:49 pm

jimdrum66 wrote:…How do I force Finale to put the clef before the key signature? I can use Finale 2011 or 2014…
The general solution is to positions individual systems next to each other.
(Take a look at the document I attached in a previous post in this thread)

By positioning systems next to each other you can solve all problems, including (e. g.)
- getting a blank space between the examples
- getting a Grand Staff - with a curly bracket
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jimdrum66
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Post by jimdrum66 » Tue Oct 28, 2014 6:32 pm

Peter,

Thank you for your quick reply. I ended up using your technique of moving staff systems next to each other. However, I find it MUCH more cumbersome than being able to adjust measures to look like I would like them to look. Your reply and the example that you posted were extremely helpful!

Jim

jimdrum66
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Post by jimdrum66 » Tue Oct 28, 2014 6:34 pm

Miker,

That looks great. I will try it next time. Good idea! Why didn't I think of that? :)

I knew there was a way to do it, but just couldn't summon the idea.

You guys are great! Thanks for the help!

Jimdrum66

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