Eastern modal key signatures

[taqasim71]

Hello! I am trying to create a nonstandard key signature which would include sharps and flats, but my brain cannot understand the process as explained in the user manual for Finale 2012. I write in a lot of such types of key signatures, but let's just use the one I'm currently using as an example.

I would like to create a key signature with a tonal center of D which corresponds to the Lydian mode, but with a lowered second scale degree. Therefore, the notes would be D - Eb - F# - G# - A - B - C#. If C were the tonal center, it would be C - Db - E - F# - G - A - B - C. Thus, assuming it can be transposed from key to key, with a blank staff representing the key of C, the base of C would require only 2 accidentals -- Db and F#. How would one create this key signature? And, if it were to be transposed up a step, would the appropriate accidentals show up - Eb, F#, C# and G#? I've read the manual several times and still find it utterly incomprehensible, most probably a shortcoming on the part of my brainpower.

As a further topic, could Finale make this process simpler and more intuitive? Most modal music in eastern modes is based on a 7 note diatonic system, with perhaps some accidentals which do not need to be part of the key signature, for example ornaments or variations based on ascending and descending patterns. Wouldn't it be great if they could simply have a 7-scale degree template based on C major, and allow you to adjust each scale degree up or down by a half-step (or microtonal interval)? That would be far more intuitive than the convoluted system currently employed.

Thank you!

[Peter Thomsen]

…I would like to create a key signature with a tonal center of D which corresponds to the Lydian mode, but with a lowered second scale degree. Therefore, the notes would be D - Eb - F# - G# - A - B - C#. If C were the tonal center, it would be C - Db - E - F# - G - A - B - C. Thus, assuming it can be transposed from key to key, with a blank staff representing the key of C, the base of C would require only 2 accidentals -- Db and F#. How would one create this key signature? And, if it were to be transposed up a step, would the appropriate accidentals show up - Eb, F#, C# and G#?…

Welcome to the forum!

I am not sure I understand what you mean by your words “assuming it can be transposed from key to key”?
Do you mean that you need to be able to transpose the score just as easily as a score in a standard key signature?
Do you mean that you have a score with transposing instruments - e. g. Alto Flute in G, Clarinet in B♭ and French Horn in F?

The better we know your project, the better we can help you.
Advice is only as good as knowledge of the project.
It would be like a doctor diagnosing the condition of a patient without examining the patient.

See the attached document.

Non-standardKeySignatures.mus.zip

(4.37 KiB) Downloaded 221 times

…As a further topic, could Finale make this process simpler and more intuitive? Most modal music in eastern modes is based on a 7 note diatonic system, with perhaps some accidentals which do not need to be part of the key signature, for example ornaments or variations based on ascending and descending patterns. Wouldn't it be great if they could simply have a 7-scale degree template based on C major, and allow you to adjust each scale degree up or down by a half-step (or microtonal interval)?…

Indeed the Key Signature Tool user interface could be more user friendly.
But I also blame the documentation (= the manual) which could be better written.

[taqasim71]

Thank you for your reply. And yes to both questions. In answer to the second question, I'd like to be able to create the key signature, and, when adding a transposing instrument, have the key signature also be transposed. Now, the first question you had perhaps may be due to my lack of understanding about how creating a new key signature works. From reading the manual -- and I may have gotten this wrong -- I assumed that you needed to create the key signature using C as the tonic, so, I thought that after creating it I'd need to transpose it to another key. Also, I'm not sure if creating a new alternate key signature is something that has to be done individually for each project or if you can create one and then use it for other projects, perhaps transposing it to another key. For example, an Arabic maqam may be played from different tonics, so it would be nice to be able to select the key signature but transpose it to another tonic. However, this may be a moot point if it can only be created for one project at a time, unless two instances of the same mode, but using different tonics, takes place within one key.

For this particular project, I need to be able to write a piece which uses the scale I've mentioned. At this time, there is no need to transpose, but it's conceivable that at some point I may need to add some transposing instruments. Often I simply write the main melodic lines, because I'm working mostly within a tradition that is centered on melody. Therefore, it's not necessarily instrument-specific. However, It would be great to be able to generate a part for anyone on any instrument who wanted to learn to play the piece. Does this make sense?

[taqasim71]

Correction -- last word of the first paragraph should be "piece" not "key."

[taqasim71]

And I wholeheartedly agree with you about the manual. I just can't make heads nor tails of what it's trying to say. The interface may be much simpler than it appears, but I can't make any sense of how it's explained. If I can learn to understand the interface, I'm sure that I could write a better set of instructions than what is in the manual.

[Peter Thomsen]

Thank you for your reply. And yes to both questions. In answer to the second question, I'd like to be able to create the key signature, and, when adding a transposing instrument, have the key signature also be transposed. Now, the first question you had perhaps may be due to my lack of understanding about how creating a new key signature works. From reading the manual -- and I may have gotten this wrong -- I assumed that you needed to create the key signature using C as the tonic, so, I thought that after creating it I'd need to transpose it to another key. Also, I'm not sure if creating a new alternate key signature is something that has to be done individually for each project or if you can create one and then use it for other projects, perhaps transposing it to another key. For example, an Arabic maqam may be played from different tonics, so it would be nice to be able to select the key signature but transpose it to another tonic. However, this may be a moot point if it can only be created for one project at a time, unless two instances of the same mode, but using different tonics, takes place within one piece…

In that case I suggest that you use a linear, lydian key signature, and lower the second scale degree with note accidentals (not with a key signature accidental).


See the attached document.
The document is set up with a Concert Key of D lydian (3 sharps, tone center: D).
As you can see/hear, the transposing instruments display and play back correctly.

To examine the document’s linear key signature, study the setup in the dialog boxes
- Nonstandard Key Signature (Linear Key Format 2)
- Tone Center(s) (Unit 0 = no sharps/flats; Unit -1 = 1 flat; Unit 1 = 1 sharp; Step Level 3 = F)

I hope that this is clear?
If not, ask again.

[taqasim71]

Well, as far as creating the linear key signature for the Lydian mode, I'm not really sure why that would be better than just using a standard key signature and writing in the notes for Lydian -- for example use the key of A but write a piece in D Lydian. I'm not even sure why Finale asks for you to specify whether the key is major or minor, as it makes no difference in terms of what you need to input in order to create a score. Perhaps it has to do with features like automatic harmonization or such, which I would never use as I prefer to create my scores note-for-note, not leaving anything up to chance or automation (with the exception of transposition). I might also mention that my preferred method of scoring is to place each note from the note entry template, rather than playing it on a keyboard, not that I know if this matters in the context of what we are talking about.

From a musical perspective, this option you've mentioned (that of flatting the second scale degree manually as an accidental for each measure) is what I've already been doing, and is rather offensive (not your suggestion, the practice) to my sensibilities as a composer, as it does not convey an accurate depiction of the mode. To me, a key signature should represent the notes that are "normal" within a mode, and having to adjust notes for every measure because they do not belong to the western key signature just kind of irks me. It's a Euro-centric model. If you read Arabic or Turkish scores, the maqamat (not sure what the plural is in Turkish) are expressed in the key signatures, which to me seems honest, correct, and functional, and I would consider it a serious shortcoming if Finale could not represent these modes in key signature form. But perhaps you suggested that because of the possible need for transposition. But, you haven't given me yet the answer I was looking for -- not sure if it's a shortcoming of the software itself, or of the way that I've stated the question.

The automatic transposition is not as necessary for me as the basic desire to represent a (nonstandard) mode accurately in the key signature. I would prefer a workaround approach which would allow me to do whatever it takes to make sure every part has the mode expressed in the proper key signature for the mode. Perhaps I should write the piece using accidentals for the notes that fall without the western parameters (in this case Eb), and then, after the part is finished, create another version, adjusting the key signature to a nonstandard one that is more faithful to the "normal" notes of the mode and would eliminate all of the Eb accidentals. For transposing instruments, I could use the version in the standard key signature for the automated transposition, then manually alter the key signature for each part, keeping the pitch values the same. So really, perhaps I should make my question a lot more simple. How can I create a key signature (in a unique instance) which has Eb, F#, C#, and G# in it?

[Peter Thomsen]

Well, as far as creating the linear key signature for the Lydian mode, I'm not really sure why that would be better than just using a standard key signature and writing in the notes for Lydian -- for example use the key of A but write a piece in D Lydian. I'm not even sure why Finale asks for you to specify whether the key is major or minor, as it makes no difference in terms of what you need to input in order to create a score…

No disagreement here!
I only gave the solution (= linear key signature for the Lydian mode) because you asked for it:

I would like to create a key signature with a tonal center of D which corresponds to the Lydian mode, but with a lowered second scale degree. Therefore, the notes would be D - Eb - F# - G# - A - B - C#.

If you had asked for a non-standard key signature with 3 sharps (for F, C and G) and 1 flat (for E) - without specifying its tonal center - I would not have suggested a linear key signature for the lydian mode.

…From a musical perspective, this option you've mentioned (that of flatting the second scale degree manually as an accidental for each measure) is what I've already been doing, and is rather offensive (not your suggestion, the practice) to my sensibilities as a composer, as it does not convey an accurate depiction of the mode. To me, a key signature should represent the notes that are "normal" within a mode, and having to adjust notes for every measure because they do not belong to the western key signature just kind of irks me. It's a Euro-centric model. If you read Arabic or Turkish scores, the maqamat (not sure what the plural is in Turkish) are expressed in the key signatures, which to me seems honest, correct, and functional, and I would consider it a serious shortcoming if Finale could not represent these modes in key signature form. But perhaps you suggested that because of the possible need for transposition…

Yes I suggested the solution with
{flatting the second scale degree manually as an accidental for each measure}
for the sake of being able to transpose and use transposing instruments, since I thought, that it was important for you.

If I have misunderstood you, then I apologize.

However, you should also be aware that musicians are used to the standard key signatures.
It might be “safer” (= cost less rehearsal time) to notate in a standard key signature, and notate the flatted second scale degree with note accidentals.

…The automatic transposition is not as necessary for me as the basic desire to represent a (nonstandard) mode accurately in the key signature. I would prefer a workaround approach which would allow me to do whatever it takes to make sure every part has the mode expressed in the proper key signature for the mode. Perhaps I should write the piece using accidentals for the notes that fall without the western parameters (in this case Eb), and then, after the part is finished, create another version, adjusting the key signature to a nonstandard one that is more faithful to the "normal" notes of the mode and would eliminate all of the Eb accidentals. For transposing instruments, I could use the version in the standard key signature for the automated transposition, then manually alter the key signature for each part, keeping the pitch values the same. So really, perhaps I should make my question a lot more simple. How can I create a key signature (in a unique instance) which has Eb, F#, C#, and G# in it?

As a simple solution, you could use a standard key signature with 4 sharps (= the key of E major), and change the 4th sharp (on D) to a flat (on E).
See the attached document where I have changed Unit 4 to
- Step Level 2 (= E)
- Amount: -1 (= flat.

If you want the key signature accidentals to appear in another order, let me know, and I shall be happy to provide a solution.
Just tell me the desired {accidental order}.

[taqasim71]

Thanks. I get what you're saying about standard key signatures being "safer," but, to me, using them also suppresses musicians' realizing that they have to get their heads into a different system. Most of the musicians I deal with are pretty smart. They can get used to something like this very quickly. In fact, I was such a musician, trained in western music, but I "learned" how to get into the mindset of eastern modal music. Also, my crusade as an educator and member of the 21st century is to encourage cultural mingling and mutual understanding. Framing things in a western-centric approach gives less of an opportunity for real cultural exchange. I think most western musicians would have trouble getting used to it at first, but once they've been exposed to it, and to the underlying modal systems these key signatures represent, it will become yet another skill to add to their set as versatile musicians. Probably no need for my soap-box speech, but I like to let people know where I'm coming from.

I think you've pretty much answered my question now, although I can't say that I've yet reviewed the attachment. However, what I'm gathering from what you've said is that the NUMBER of alterations to an all-natural key signature is what is key, and then you can change any number of that number. So, for example, if I wanted to make the order of the accidentals Eb, F#, C#, G#, then I would pick a key signature with four accidentals and then alter each one individually, since none would be in their traditional numerical order. Is this correct? I'd like to understand how it works so I don't have to ask for help again when I take on other non-standard key signatures. I think visually it looks better to have the Eb come first -- and I believe that's how it's traditionally done in Arabic music, for example.

Oh, I just looked at the attachment you sent and see that the Eb is placed in the higher position, rather than the lower one, as it would be represented in, for example, the key of Bb. Is there a way to control which register is used to position the altered note? (I want to call it an accidental, but I guess it's not really an accidental if it's in the key signature!)

[Peter Thomsen]

…So, for example, if I wanted to make the order of the accidentals Eb, F#, C#, G#, then I would pick a key signature with four accidentals and then alter each one individually, since none would be in their traditional numerical order. Is this correct?…

Yes, exactly.
You could begin with four sharps or with four flats - it does not matter.

…Oh, I just looked at the attachment you sent and see that the Eb is placed in the higher position, rather than the lower one, as it would be represented in, for example, the key of Bb. Is there a way to control which register is used to position the altered note?…

This is clef specific.
In the Treble Clef the key of B♭ major “usually” has the B♭ in front of the middle staff-line, and the E♭ in the higher position.
But it is perfectly OK to have the E♭ in the lower position, since a key signature accidental applies to all octaves.

KeyOfBbMajor.gif (6.08 KiB) Viewed 7977 times

To control the octave placement of a {key signature accidental}:
From the dialog box Nonstandard Key Signature, click the button “Acc. Octaves”, to get to the dialog box Accidental Octave Placement.
Here you can set the accidental octave placement for each of the document’s 18 clefs.
The only “tricky” thing here is to identify the clefs by number.

To do so, take a look at the 18 clefs you can have in a document.
They are displayed in the Clef Designer, and in the dialog box Change Clef:

ChangeClef.jpg (62.39 KiB) Viewed 7977 times

Clef 0 is the Treble Clef.
Clef 1 is the Alto Clef
Clef 2 is the Tenor Clef
Clef 3 is the Bass Clef.
&c.

[taqasim71]

Oh, yes, you are right. The E is usually placed in the upper octave. I guess I've gotten so used to looking at Arabic scores that I forgot what was standard! Thank you. I understand the method, now I just have to put it into practice. I'll write again if I run into problems!

[taqasim71]

Oh, I guess I do have one more question. Do you agree that, for possible transposition circumstances, that I keep a file in a standard key signature with manually placed accidentals in addition to the file with the non-standard key signature? Or is that an unnecessary step? If I transposed the file with the non-standard signature, would it transpose it using a standard key signature, which I would then simply alter to a non-standard one?

[Peter Thomsen]

…Do you agree that, for possible transposition circumstances, that I keep a file in a standard key signature with manually placed accidentals in addition to the file with the non-standard key signature? Or is that an unnecessary step? If I transposed the file with the non-standard signature, would it transpose it using a standard key signature, which I would then simply alter to a non-standard one?

Creating two versions is extra work.
I would avoid that, if possible.

Something to try:

Let us say that you for some of the pieces you only need the nonstandard key signature, but then for one particularly piece you also need a “transposable” version.
You make a duplicate copy of the document, open the duplicate, and change the key signature to a “transposable” key signature.
Here comes the trick:
When you change the key signature to a “standard” linear key format, go to the pane Transposition Options, and choose
Hold Notes to Original Pitches Chromatically

KeySignature.jpg (48.81 KiB) Viewed 7960 times

You may have to, manually correct the enharmonic spelling of the notes with note accidentals.

When you - as the next step - create a linked part with a staff transposition, the linked part will have correct playback - and you can use the linked part immediately.

As the next step you will (if I understand you correctly) change the key signature for the linked part so that the linked part displays a non-standard key signature.
To do so you must let the staff for the linked part (with a transposing instrument) have Independent Key Signatures.
This is a setting in the Staff Attributes, in the pane Independent Elements.

When the staff has Independent Key Signatures, you can change the Key Signature for that staff only, without affecting the other staves in the score.
This last step is not as simple as it may sound.
You may have to experiment before you get the non-standard key signature right.
If you encounter trouble, let me know.