Creating the score for the director/conductor

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Cheri
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Post by Cheri » Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:56 pm

If this doesn't belong under General, let me know (and where to post it).

I'm creating a hard copy score for the director or conductor. So everything is not so small, I delete some instruments and implode others (such as putting the French horns on a couple of staves and deleting the duplicates). I can do that. However, lots of space is then left at the bottom of the page. I've tried the % tool and Page Layout (Space Systems Evenly). I've tried searching the Help file, but I don't know what to type in, as "score" gives over 500 results and director score or conductor score don't call it up. I don't need all 37 staves, I'd like it down to 20-25 or so. I know which ones to delete and which ones to implode for our director, but I can't get them to spread back out from top to bottom of the page.

Thank you for all your help!
Cheri


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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Wed Feb 17, 2016 5:55 am

Welcome to the forum!

With that many staves I suppose that there is only room for one system on each page, right?

I would try the Resize Tool (icon: %), and click in the upper left corner of the page, to resize everything on the page.

You may have to experiment with the resize percentage, but it should be possible to find a percentage that makes the score system exactly fill the page, without space left at the bottom of the page.
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Cheri
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Post by Cheri » Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:03 pm

Thank you Peter! I went up to 200%. This whole time (years) the director has been using the trumpet (or other) part! And it was the percent tool! I see I need to decide on the percent first, then decide if I want 10, 15, etc measure on the page, otherwise it gets that lock in the corner and they scrunch up when I change the percentage a 2nd time. Thank you again!

Cheri
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Post by Cheri » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:43 pm

Back to working on this score. I kinda know part of the problem.

Originally, we need parts for 37 staves and then I whittle it down to 20ish. Now the print is too small, and it's on 9 pages. So I take the % tool and increase it. Then I use the Page Layout tool to space it evenly. And it works great, but now my score goes from page 1 to 23. Pages 1-9 (original amount of pages) are okay. It's pages 10-end. Those pages magically became landscape (I put them back to portrait). The score headers (score, title, page #) has moved, the % has decided to become something of its own (although it's saying 170% like pages 1-9). The top staff is in a different position than on pages 1-9. So I checked the page margins on 1-9 and set the page margins on 10-23 to be the same. I took the percent from pages 10-23 and changed it back to 70%, so now I have only 16 pages (probably around that number for a 125 measure march). There's probably something I can do better than tweak this at the end. I've attached a screen shot of page 9 (from original settings) next to page 10 (tweaked settings). You can see how the staves don't line up anymore and the top staff (flute) is clashing with the title. There must be some setting I'm not looking at.

Thank you again in advance for the help!
Cheri
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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Sat Feb 20, 2016 7:38 am

Cheri wrote:…There must be some setting I'm not looking at…
Indeed there is.
Go to
Document menu > Page Format > Score…
The settings in {Page Format for Score} are used when Finale creates new pages.
Already created pages are not affected.

Make sure that the settings in {Page Format for Score} are as you need them.
To update all the already existing pages with the settings in {Page Format for Score}:
Page Layout Tool.
Page Layout menu > Redefine Pages > All Pages of Current Part/Score
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Cheri
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Post by Cheri » Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:05 pm

I'm still struggling with this. I've tried it from two different computers with the same results.

This was listed first. So I did it:
<<Document menu > Page Format > Score…
The settings in {Page Format for Score} are used when Finale creates new pages.
Already created pages are not affected.>>

Since all my pages were created, nothing happened. Not too sure why I had to do this step.

Then the 2nd part said:
<<Make sure that the settings in {Page Format for Score} are as you need them.
To update all the already existing pages with the settings in {Page Format for Score}:
Page Layout Tool.
Page Layout menu > Redefine Pages > All Pages of Current Part/Score>>

This messes things up. Page 1 of the conductor's score is different than pages 2-end, as page 1 has the title and composer on it. I messed around with the margins and somehow got them to agree with the original score page of 2-8. All except page 16 for some reason. And I somehow got everything to Portrait instead of Landscape. But I still have a problem with the 1st staff of page 9-16 being up higher than pages 2-8. I copied what you wrote and went step by step. It still looks the same to me as the other screen shot I posted.

I guess because this piece was given to us, I don't know what his original settings were or where to find them. I do see a setting for Page Layout> Systems > Edit System Margins, but I'm afraid to try it because it doesn't allow me to do certain pages (page one is different due to the title).

Thanks again,
Cheri
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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:41 pm

Cheri wrote:…This was listed first. So I did it:
<<Document menu > Page Format > Score…
The settings in {Page Format for Score} are used when Finale creates new pages.
Already created pages are not affected.>>

Since all my pages were created, nothing happened. Not too sure why I had to do this step…
I apologize. I have expressed myself unclearly.

The reason why you should do this step, is that you should examine the settings in {Page Format for Score}, and edit the settings there so that they are, as you need them (e. g. Portrait orientation).

Cheri wrote:…Then the 2nd part said:
<<Make sure that the settings in {Page Format for Score} are as you need them.
To update all the already existing pages with the settings in {Page Format for Score}:
Page Layout Tool.
Page Layout menu > Redefine Pages > All Pages of Current Part/Score>>

This messes things up. Page 1 of the conductor's score is different than pages 2-end, as page 1 has the title and composer on it. I messed around with the margins and somehow got them to agree with the original score page of 2-8. All except page 16 for some reason. And I somehow got everything to Portrait instead of Landscape. But I still have a problem with the 1st staff of page 9-16 being up higher than pages 2-8. I copied what you wrote and went step by step. It still looks the same to me as the other screen shot I posted…
Do not Redefine Pages until the settings in {Page Format for Score} are as you need them.
Running the command Redefine Pages before you have corrected {Page Format for Score}, will mess up things (as you have found out).

If I understand you correctly, the pages 2-8 now all have the same layout.
And this layout is the layout you need for the remaining pages, right?

Then this layout has the settings you should choose/enter in {Page Format for Score}.

Cheri wrote:…I guess because this piece was given to us, I don't know what his original settings were, or where to find them…
If I understand you correctly, the original document had 37 staves.
And now you are creating a score with fewer staves, right?
Since the original settings were for a document with 37 staves, you have no need for the original settings.

Cheri wrote:…I do see a setting for Page Layout> Systems > Edit System Margins, but I'm afraid to try it because it doesn't allow me to do certain pages (page one is different due to the title)…
If I understand you correctly, each system fills an entire page so that you have System 1 on Page 1, System 2 on Page 2 &c.
- right?

In the dialog box Edit System Margins you can specify what systems you are going to change, e. g. from System 2 and onwards, so that System 1 (on Page 1) is not affected.


By The Way:
Similarly, with the command Redefine Pages you can choose to redefine only certain pages, e. g. only Page 2.


I hope that this is clear?
If not, ask again.
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Cheri
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Post by Cheri » Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:24 pm

Ugh, I just spent an hour typing up my answer and I guess it logged me out! I'm soooo frustrated.

I changed something and got the following screen shot. It's closer. But I see an extra dashed line when I'm on Page Layout. This extra dashed line is not on pages 1-8, only 9-16. You can see it's off just a little bit. So I'm closer.

I think my problem right now is not having a Finale vocabulary. You talk about a system as if it's a different thing than a staff. I've even seen Staff System Range in Finale, so I think it's all the same thing.

Thank you again for your patience.
Cheri
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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:47 pm

1) A short lesson in “Finale-speak”:

* A staff runs horizontally through all the measures of the entire document.

* A measure runs vertically through all the staves.

* A system is one line of music, often 4 measures, or 8 measures.

Systems can only be seen in Page View.
If you switch to Scroll View, you will see staves, but no systems.


2) From your screen shots it looks like you have chosen a Page View Style that displays multiple pages. (look in the View menu)
I suggest that you - for this project - try the Page View Style “Looseleaf Style: Current Page Only”.
In that way Finale knows, exactly what page you are looking at.


3) Your main problems seems to be that you need to update the settings in {Page Format for Score} with the settings you need.
To get there it might be a good idea that you select this option:
Page Layout menu > Update Page Format for Score.
When {Update Page Format for Score} is selected, Finale will monitor your layout edits, and write them into Page Format for Score.
You can e. g. edit the page margins by changing a page margin from zero to another value, and then back to zero (not via Undo!).
Similarly you can edit system margins by changing a system margin from zero to another value, and then back to zero (not via Undo!).
When you do so, Finale will update the settings in Page Format for Score.

When you have updated the {Page Format for Score} settings, you can use the command Redefine Pages.

The option {Update Page Format for Score} is program specific, not document specific.
You should probably de-select {Update Page Format for Score} when you are done.


4) To get the same layout through the whole score:

a) Make sure that the page margins are the same on all pages.
To examine the page margins of a specific page, switch to the Page Layout Tool, go to the page you want to examine, and then to
Page Layout menu > Page Margins > Adjust Current Page Only
and then
Page Layout menu > Page Margins > Edit Page Margins…

You get to the dialog box Edit Page Margins where you can set the page margins for a specified range of pages (e. g. for all the pages).

b) Similarly, use the dialog box Edit System Margins to make sure that the system margins are the same through all the systems (except for System 1, on Page 1).
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Cheri
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Post by Cheri » Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:25 pm

Again, thank you for your patience as I continue to struggle with this. Wish you could reach through the computer and show me what I'm doing wrong.

I had the vocabulary, but was fuzzy on "system." Thank you for clarifying.

I printed out your previous response and went step by step. Nothing changed.

In looking at the score, the FIRST SYSTEM on pages 1-8 is spaced correctly with the correct margin distance from the top. But when I look at the FIRST SYSTEM on pages 9-16,it's like someone hit the "Return"key on an old fashioned typewriter and everything dropped down just one typed line. I went page by page like you said and checked all the PAGE margins. All are identical (except page 1).

However, this is peculiar to me. On Page Layout menu > Systems > Select Staff System Range, it's set from 9 to 9. So if I want to edit the SYSTEM margins, nothing is going to happen. And you said to make sure the system margins are the same through all the systems (except system 1, page 1). Is this part of my problem?

Again, thank you for your unending supply of patience. Cheri
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Cheri
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Post by Cheri » Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:40 pm

Wait. I just figures out a work around. Kinda tedious though. And it doesn't fix that the "title, page #" is off by one line, but at this point, I guess it doesn't matter.

I clicked the Staff tool. The "handles" (?) or boxes appear. So I drag one part down a tiny bit and other parts up a tiny bit, making sure that they are in line with page 8. I have to do it for all pages and all parts, but it'll work for the time being.

Hope I learn to do scores. I was told it's really too hard to do.
Thanks!
Cheri

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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Mon Mar 07, 2016 10:19 pm

Cheri wrote:…On Page Layout menu > Systems > Select Staff System Range, it's set from 9 to 9. So if I want to edit the SYSTEM margins, nothing is going to happen. And you said to make sure the system margins are the same through all the systems (except system 1, page 1). Is this part of my problem?…
Yes, that is probably part of your problem.
If you go to
Page Layout menu > Systems > Edit Margins…
you get to the dialog box Edit System Margins where you can specify a system range, and set the system margins for individual systems.

You can also use the Edit System Margins dialog box to examine the system margins of a specific system:
First click the system to select it, and next open the Edit System Margins dialog.

However, to get the same layout everywhere it is simpler to set the system margins in
Document menu > Page Format > Score…
and then run the command Redefine Pages (in the Page Layout menu).
Cheri wrote:…Wish you could reach through the computer and show me what I'm doing wrong…
You can attach a Finale document here - with some restrictions:

This forum does not accept attachments with the Finale file name extension.
Before you can attach a Finale document in this forum, you must compress it, e. g. as a .zip file.
And the file size must not be more than max. 100 KB.
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Cheri
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Post by Cheri » Tue Mar 15, 2016 8:07 pm

OK, new score, so I get to start all over. I went back and reread everything. I came up with 11 steps to make a score. I don't think they are out of order and I think as I figured out something was off with an imported scores from Finale 2003, it made problems. This score is from 2009, so maybe it is easier?

Current score is 8 pages. It's a march of 118 measures.

1) Implode the score.
2) Resize tool (icon : %). Click upper left corner of page to resize. (I know as soon as I do this, it will make more than 8 pages and those new pages are going to have page margins and system margins of their own).
3) Document Menu > Page Format > Score...
Check the settings in {Page Format for Score} and edit the settings (such as, put it in Potrait. Anything else I should do?)
4) Page Layout Tool > Page Layout Menu > Redefine Page > All Pages
5) Page Layout menu > Update Page Format for Score
Edit the page margins and system margins.
6) Redefine pages (again).
7) Deselect {Update Page Format for Score}
8) Check margins on all pages: Page Layout Menu >Page Margins > Edit Page Marigns...(so look at the settings and make sure each one is 0.5 or whatever I pick).
9) Edit System Margins for all systems (except system 1, page 1).
10) Page Layout menu > Systems > Edit Margins..
(specific system range and set system margins for individual system). click system to select it, open Edit Systems Mars dialog box.
11) Same system margins: Document menu > Page Format > Score ...
then run Redefine Page {in the Page Layout menu}

Right now, my brain is saying if I put top, bottom, left, and right margins at 0.5 all the way around (for example) that the system will fit there because a system sits on the page, so why am I messing with system margins (my brain is now trying to make system and page margins the same thing).

Thanks once again,
Cheri

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