Page layout annoyance or am I stupid?

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drharri
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 8:46 am
Finale Version: 2k2, 2k4, 2k5, 2012
Operating System: Windows

Post by drharri » Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:10 am

I'm trying to (in Finale 2k4b/Windows for the moment) to align the systems of two adjacent pages onto the same positions (heights). In order to achieve this I have the following:

Page 1: page top margin 290 evpus.
Page 1 system 1: distance between systems 290 evpus, which is the distance between systems for every system in the document. System margins all zero.

I have 10 systems on page 1. They are the systems 1-10.

Page 2: page top margin 0 evpus.
Page 2 system 1: distance between systems 290 evpus (which is the distance between systems for every system in the document). System margins all zero.

On page 2 I have 11 systems. They are the systems 11-21.

My purpose is to have the systems 1-10 of page 1 aligned onto the same positions as the systems 12-21 of page 2. I would figure that having the page 1 top margin 290 evpus (supposedly equal to the space that is reserved to a single system) would make this happen.

For some reason, it doesn't. The systems 12-21 of page 2 are placed slightly above the systems 1-10 of page 1.

Why is this? Am I missing something? How could I correct this (other than by arbitrarily experimenting with different values for the page top margins)?

Assistance would be highly appreciated.


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Peter Thomsen
Posts: 6601
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:47 pm
Finale Version: Finale v27.4
Operating System: Mac

Post by Peter Thomsen » Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:45 pm

Welcome to the forum!

You are using Finale 2004b for Windows, right?

I am sure you understand how difficult it can be to diagnose something blindly with nothing to look at.

Rather than asking you a lot of very specific questions (which you perhaps do not understand) about the document’s layout settings it is much better that you attach a (small) Finale sample document here for the gurus to examine.

You can safely clear all the music from the sample document - we only need to see the empty measures.

This forum does not accept attachments with the Finale file name extension.

Before you can attach a Finale document in this forum, you must compress it, e. g. as a .zip file.
And the file size must not be more than max. 100 KB.
Mac OS X 12.6.9 (Monterey), Finale user since 1996

drharri
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 8:46 am
Finale Version: 2k2, 2k4, 2k5, 2012
Operating System: Windows

Post by drharri » Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:22 am

Peter Thomsen wrote:You are using Finale 2004b for Windows, right?
Yes.
I am sure you understand how difficult it can be to diagnose something blindly with nothing to look at.
I'm attaching the document in question. Please note that it is unfinalized.

There are three pages now, actually. All system margins: 0. Distance between systems: 290 evpus. Page 1 top margin: 290 evpus. Pages 2 & 3 top margins: 0. Systems on page 2 do align with those of page 3. Systems on page 1 do not align with those of pages 2 and 3 but appear a bit lower. This is as if some more space than 290 + 290 evpus were added on top of page 1 (that is, between the page edge and the topmost line of system 1). I'm concerned with this space: How much is it (so that I would know what amount to subtract from the page margin in order to get the systems of page 1 aligned with those of pages 2 and 3), and why is it there (is it a bug or a feature, and if it is a bug, has it been corrected since some post-2004 Finale version)?

Thanks in advance.
Attachments
Demo.zip
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Peter Thomsen
Posts: 6601
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:47 pm
Finale Version: Finale v27.4
Operating System: Mac

Post by Peter Thomsen » Sun Jul 24, 2016 5:08 pm

By examining your document I can see that the Page Scaling is set to 73 %.

That scaling (= Page Scaling) of 73 % affects systems, and also system margins.
But it does not affect page margins.

What I would do:

1) Set the page margins on Page 1 to the same as the page margins on Page 2 and onwards (Top Margin = zero).

2) Go to the System Margins for System 1.
Set the Distance Between Systems to zero, and set the Top Margin to 676 EVPUs. *)

While you are doing the steps 1) and 2), you might like to have “Update Page Format for Score” selected (in the Page Layout menu).
You can de-select it when you are done.

If you afterwards go to
Document menu > Page Format > Score…
then you will see that the settings have been updated.
The update means that you at any time can return the layout to these default values via the command “Redefine Pages” (in the Page Layout menu).

*) You can also set the Distance Between Systems to 290 EVPUs, and set the Top Margin to 386 EVPUs.
The resulting layout will be the same.
The math: 676 = 290 + 290 + 96
where 96 EVPUs = the height of a staff.

By The Way:
96 EVPUs = 24 Points
Normally you set the Default Music Font to 24 Points (e. g. Maestro 24).
This is one of the reasons why some users prefer having Points as Measurement Units instead of EVPUs.

Anyway, you can always make a temporary change of Measurement Units by adding units after the number value:
24pt = 24 Points
96e = 96 EVPUs

When you’re overriding the global setting in this way, you even have an extra unit option (millimeters) not available in the menu for Measurement Units.

Survey:
e for EVPUs (or evpus, or EVPUs)
pt for points (or pts, or points) 1pt = 4e
s for spaces (or sp, or spaces) 1s = 6pt
p for picas (or pi, or picas) 1p = 2s
i for inches (or in, or inch, or inches) 1i = 6p
c for centimeters (or cm, or centimeters)
m for millimeters (or mm, or millimeters)
Mac OS X 12.6.9 (Monterey), Finale user since 1996

drharri
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 8:46 am
Finale Version: 2k2, 2k4, 2k5, 2012
Operating System: Windows

Post by drharri » Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:46 am

Thanks! I notice that my error was in the following: I didn't take into account the staff height (96 evpus), or the fact that this and the System Margins etc. are affected byt the Page Scaling percentage. Now if I stick with modifying the Page 1 top margin, the math is (290 + 96) x 0.73 = 281.78 = 282 for practical purposes.

The information that the unscaled staff height is 96 evpus is sufficient for the current document with 1 staff / system. Now, is the space required by a system with multiple staves = <Distance From Top> of the botton staff (Staff Usage dialog box) + 96, or what?

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Peter Thomsen
Posts: 6601
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:47 pm
Finale Version: Finale v27.4
Operating System: Mac

Post by Peter Thomsen » Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:17 pm

drharri wrote:…Now if I stick with modifying the Page 1 top margin, the math is (290 + 96) x 0.73 = 281.78 = 282 for practical purposes…
That is not what I would do, but … yes, now you understand.

drharri wrote:…The information that the unscaled staff height is 96 evpus is sufficient for the current document with 1 staff / system. Now, is the space required by a system with multiple staves = <Distance From Top> of the botton staff (Staff Usage dialog box) + 96, or what?
I have not been using Finale 2004 for many years, and I do not remember much about Finale 2004.

But in more recent versions the wording in Staff Usage is “Distance From Top of Previous Staff”.
This means that the staves can be spaced un-evenly, if necessary.

Should the staff spacing be the same everywhere in your document?

If yes, then I would …
1) Switch to Scroll View.
2) Use the command
Staff menu > Respace Staves…
to space the staves evenly in Scroll View.
3) Switch to Page View.
4) Use the command
Staff menu > Respace Staves…
to set the staff spacing to Scroll View Spacing.

When you have the staves spaced evenly (as described above), then the math goes like this:
The height of a multi-staff system with n staves is (n-1)(topline to topline distance) + 96 EVPUs.

I hope that this is clear?
If not, ask again.
Mac OS X 12.6.9 (Monterey), Finale user since 1996

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