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I need a tied unison note

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I need a tied unison note

Postby Djard » Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:35 pm

Apart from adding a tied unison note in another layer or artificially creating one with the Slur Tool, is there any other way to tie unison notes? I have attached the measure (#3) with the challenge. BTW, the term unison does not even appear in the index of the manual.
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Re: I need a tied unison note

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Re: I need a tied unison note

Postby zuill » Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:41 pm

The problem with that chord is that you have about 4 Es stacked on top of eachother. That is causing issues.

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Re: I need a tied unison note

Postby motet » Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:54 pm

Once you've got that sorted out, I think you still need to go into the Speedy edit frame and check Tie Start for the other E.

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Re: I need a tied unison note

Postby Djard » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:05 am

I must have pressed the "1" key more than once when writing the unison note. Duh! I deleted the duplicated notes.

Thank you for responding, but you left out a critical step; so I am still unable to replicate your work. Below is what I interpreted your instruction to mean, when you said, "go into the Speedy edit frame and check Tie Start for the other E."

1. Speedy Entry tool -> place crossbar on the unison note that is not tied.
2. Speedy (upper text menu) -> Speedy Edit Commands -> Tie/Untie to Next Note.

That doesn't work. I also tried pressing the "=" key, but that merely toggles the existing tie; it does not add a tie to the other unison note. After an hour of trying different things, like searching the manual for "Tie start," I began to think Finale engineers are sadistic and threw in the towel.

Can you share the trick you used to create the unison tie?
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Re: I need a tied unison note

Postby zuill » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:22 am

In my testing, I got a tie for both notes, but the were in the same direction. I flipped one of them. If you can't get one of them tied, In Speedy, press ctrl and click on the measure. Navigate to the note needing the tie and select Tie Start.

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Re: I need a tied unison note

Postby motet » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:34 am

The Speedy edit frame is not the same as Speedy entry, and is arcane in the extreme. It is documented, though.

But I think Zuill's right--you can get all the ties without it. In Speedy entry, move the cursor to each notehead with up- and down-arrow and press T. You might have to visit a note more than once but I was eventually able to get all ties, and you do have to flip one with the tie tool to make it look good.
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Re: I need a tied unison note

Postby zuill » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:04 am

It is a bit wonky. The only way I could get it to work was to move the note up a step and then apply the tie, then move it back.

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Re: I need a tied unison note

Postby motet » Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:35 am

We were overthinking it--all you have to do is, starting with no ties, move the cursor in Speedy entry up or down so it's not on any of the notes and press T--it adds ties to everything!
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Re: I need a tied unison note

Postby Djard » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:23 pm

I don't doubt the success you folks have had in adding a tie to a unison note, but I can assure you none of what you share works in Finale 2012. I tried dropping one of the unison notes onto an empty staff line, adding a tie then moving it back up: the tie just disappears. Placing the crossbar on a blank line then pressing T or the "=" key--as stated in the manual--adds ties to all the notes, except the unison note.

Sorry to be such a poor student; but if you are willing to help me, you will need to reveal the missing step...or maybe Finale 2012 just does not support tied unison notes. I'm keeping my fingers crossed (makes it hard to play my instrument!).
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Re: I need a tied unison note

Postby motet » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:40 pm

Did you start with no ties at all? T is a toggle. It works in 2011 and 2014.5, so something else is going on.

I created the notes in Simple by inputting the A, then typing 3, 3, 1, 4. Then I switched to Speedy and typed the T. I then flipped one of the ties with the tie tool.

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Re: I need a tied unison note

Postby zuill » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:40 pm

Okay.

After you get rid of the slur, which is not needed:

1. With the Simple Entry Tie Tool (and no note selected) click each note until all the ties in Layer 1 are gone.

2. Since the quarter note has 3 extra E's, use Simple Entry to delete them. Select the E on the left side of the stem. It highlights in purple. Press Delete 3 times.

3. Back to the Simple Entry Tie Tool (no note selected). Press the stem of the chord. All 4 ties are there, but 2 are superimposed.

4. Use Special Tools/Tie Tool to grab eithr the right or left handle of one of those ties and nudge it up. Since this layer wants all 4 ties Over, then that is okay. You don't want to flip any of them. You just want one of the 2 ties for the unison to be higher than the other.

I've attached the file revised to show my result.

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Re: I need a tied unison note

Postby motet » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:43 pm

I notice your unison note in the original file you posted sticks out to the right rather than the left. Maybe it has something to do with that?
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Re: I need a tied unison note

Postby zuill » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:47 pm

Here's a picture of the fixed chord.

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Re: I need a tied unison note

Postby Djard » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:56 pm

Well, again I learned that Finale does not support classical and flamenco guitar music very well. The program gets confused easily when polyphonic notation is involved. Instead of editing the measure (fails), I wrote the notation again from scratch in a blank measure then copied and pasted it into the problematic one. The steps provided herein then worked perfectly. Thanks you, thank you, thank you.
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Re: I need a tied unison note

Postby motet » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:50 pm

If you were able to reenter it without a problem, then perhaps it's not the case that Finale does not support classical and flamenco guitar music very well and the program gets confused. I was in fact able to get the original thing you posted to work using Zuill's instructions.

I didn't delete the extra E's.

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Re: I need a tied unison note

Postby Djard » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:00 pm

Over the years, I have never experienced any problems when writing monophonic lines, such as for orchestration. But in almost every document--if not every document--with polyphonic notation, such as for classical or flamenco guitar, Finale becomes unstable. The more complex the music, the more problems occur, such as scattering of expressions, ossias disappearing and a myriad of other issues that others have conceded have been ignored by Finale engineers.

Recently I ran into the tuplet bug again, where I must change a common time measure to 5/4 temporarily, so I can write the notes on the last beat. This I did as an edit in the middle of a movement. After successfully writing the tuplet, I found that the ensuing notation in layer 2 shifted beats by two beats. I spent an hour cleaning up that mess. But as I said, I never experience such issues when writing other instruments.

I know Finale is primarily notation software, so I don't expect the adding of graphics to be robust. But if a feature is added then it needs to be stable. The pause feature in the playback toolbar has not worked in any edition, and it will apparently remain non-functional, which I think reflects the MakeMusic's philosophy that it's better to add more features in a new edition than repair existing flaws. But, despite, the limitations imposed, I still think Finale is a great program. If Adobe published Finale, you can be sure the bugs would be fixed.
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Re: I need a tied unison note

Postby motet » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:05 pm

Djard wrote:Recently I ran into the tuplet bug again, where I must change a common time measure to 5/4 temporarily

I don't believe one ever needs to resort to that to enter a tuplet, so you're likely making more work for yourself than you need to (such as with the ties). If you'd like to describle the tuplet situation, probably someone can set you straight (also, tell us what input method you're using).
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Re: I need a tied unison note

Postby Peter Thomsen » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:39 pm

Djard wrote:… Recently I ran into the tuplet bug again, where I must change a common time measure to 5/4 temporarily, so I can write the notes on the last beat …

Let me guess:
You are trying to end a measure with a tuplet, right?
And Finale will not let you do so, right?

It is a well known issue, but the fix is simple.
No need to change the time signature.
Just de-select “Check for Extra Notes”.
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Re: I need a tied unison note

Postby Djard » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:36 pm

Please do me a favor and try these steps, using the proposed solution:

1. Uncheck "Check for Extra Notes" in Speedy.
2. Write, say, the first 1/8th note of a triplet on the last beat in a measure.
3. Write the third note of the triplet. You now have a 1/8th note, a 1/8th rest and the third 1/8th note of the triplet.
4. Delete the rest in the middle.
5. Attempt to overwrite the first 1/8th note with a 1/4 note, so that you have a 1/4note and 1/8th note under a triplet sign as in the attached file.

If a complex tuplet I wish to write is not preceded by a rest that I can temporarily delete, I must temporarily add a beat to the measure in order to write the tuplet on the last beat. Disabling "Check for Extra Notes" in Finale 2012c for the purpose I described does not work, not in the standard default document nor in a document without a library...at least not in Finale v2012c.

If you can write the tuplet in the attached file any other way, please share the secret.

Respectfully
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Re: I need a tied unison note

Postby motet » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:49 pm

To write a quarter+eighth triplet in Speedy, type Ctrl-1 followed by Enter to close the dialog, which sets up the default of a triplet of three eighths in the space of two. Then enter the quarter note and the eighth note. (No need to turn off "Check for extra notes.")
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Re: I need a tied unison note

Postby zuill » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:54 pm

Djard,

Since I had no trouble entering, I guess the method I tried is not the method you are using. Mouse? QWERTY keyboard? MIDI keyboard? Simple? Speedy?

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Re: I need a tied unison note

Postby motet » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:58 pm

Djard wrote:1. Uncheck "Check for Extra Notes" in Speedy.
2. Write, say, the first 1/8th note of a triplet on the last beat in a measure.
3. Write the third note of the triplet. You now have a 1/8th note, a 1/8th rest and the third 1/8th note of the triplet.
4. Delete the rest in the middle.
5. Attempt to overwrite the first 1/8th note with a 1/4 note, so that you have a 1/4note and 1/8th note under a triplet sign as in the attached file

As for this, I don't know what you're doing wrong. If I do it, I get the desired result without even turning off "Check for extra notes." Step 2 glosses over how you made the triplet. Are you typing Ctrl-3 and then entering three eighth notes or rests? In step 5, how are you overwriting the note? The easiest way is to turn off "insert notes or rests" (the Insert key toggles this), put the cursor over the entered eighth note, then press 5 to change it to a quarter. But the Ctrl-1 method above seems easier to me.
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Re: I need a tied unison note

Postby zuill » Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:12 pm

Ah. I didn't notice Speedy.

Okay, now, QWERTY or MIDI entry?

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Re: I need a tied unison note

Postby Djard » Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:07 am

I prefer to use the Simple Entry method of writing music with a mouse, since the idea of having to memorize that pressing Q writes C5 and pressing A write middle C, etc. seems an exercise in reorganizing the neuronal circuitry in the intraparietal sulces and prefrontal cortext of the organ of consciousness, rather than composing music. No doubt though that the Speedy Entry method in the long term would promote dendritic sprouting and preserve IQ in old age.

Motet's method worked nicely for me. Thanks. I wish you guys had written the so-called manual.

I can't tell you how grateful I am to you for rescuing me from the labor of having to temporarily change the time signature, every time I need to write an odd tuplet on the last beat in a measure, which can mess up the following notation after the time signature is changed back.

I wish you the best imaginable
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Re: I need a tied unison note

Postby motet » Fri Jan 13, 2017 7:01 am

Since an eighth-note triplet is the Ctrl-1 default, it works well for quarter+eighth. But anything else requires a foray into the tedious pull-down world of the Tuplet Definition dialog. In that case, sometimes the replace method you outlined is better.
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