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Transposing help!

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Transposing help!

Postby Saxydragons » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:47 pm

I play for a community orchestra and am also the Music Liberian. We have a piece that has the Horn in A & E instead of F. When I have had to transpose in the past, I was able to put the original instrumentation in and then "change instruments". I cannot find a related instrument for a Horn in A and E to be able to easily change to Horn in F. PLEASE HELP!
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Re: Transposing help!

Postby Charles Lawrence » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:19 pm

Choose a transposition of Other and put these values in Interval/AlterKey:

Horn in A: 2/-3

Horn in E: 5/-4

PS: Both Motet and myself have produced charts for everything concerning transposition. I must admit that Motet's is easier to use than mine, and addresses only instruments that actually exist or have existed. I will let him point you to his link for the chart.

I will post mine as well. :evil: See the file comment.
Attachments
FinaleTranspositionChart_R8a1.pdf.zip
This is not a ZIP file, but a PDF. Just remove the .ZIP extension after downloading. The forum won't allow PDF's to be uploaded. Another major flaw, IMHO!
(171.91 KiB) Downloaded 24 times
Last edited by Charles Lawrence on Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Transposing help!

Postby Andreo Basisto » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:29 pm

Greetings tchmschlosser!

Some time ago, Motet produced a superb table of all the possible transpositons and I consult it often. The previous MM Forum had a link to that chart, but it’s not here in this forum. Perhaps he could re-link it?
In the meantime, go to the staff transpostions dialog box (staff attributes > transpositon) and for Horn in A, enter 2 in the interval box and -3 in the key alter box. Horn in E needs 5, -4.

Andreo Basisto

PS Charles beat me to it by a gnat's crotchet!
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Re: Transposing help!

Postby Saxydragons » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:44 pm

Charles, thank you for the information. The attachment of "finaleTranspositionChart_R8a1.pdf.zip" I cannot open. I get an error message of "The compressed zipped folder is invalid. Is there another way to get this information?

Also, I'm not sure I understand how to get this started? When I go to set up wizard what do I need to do? Do I just need to do a blank manuscript and then do the attributes?
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Re: Transposing help!

Postby michelp » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:53 pm

deleted...
Last edited by michelp on Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Transposing help!

Postby Charles Lawrence » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:54 pm

tcmschlosser,

Did you see the file comment? It sounds like you did not rename the downloaded file by removing the .ZIP extension. I had to add .ZIP on to the end because, as of now, this forum will not allow the upload of PDF files, unless I'm missing something. Groan! The file is a PDF, which I assume you should be able to open after simply removing .ZIP

Hope this helps. If not, let me know.

To start, set up either two blank staves or staves for horn in F. Then choose the correct transposition before entering the original horn parts in A and E. After entering all the original notes, then simply switch both A and E horn to F, as you know how to do with the transposition dropdown in the Score Manager. You also could use the Change Instrument utility.
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Re: Transposing help!

Postby Saxydragons » Sat Jan 07, 2017 3:58 pm

Ok then I can write the original part, then transpose it back to Horn in F correct? Thank you all for all the help! I have had Finale for years and have not ever run into this and couldn't find any help in the help section (unless I was using the wrong key words which is possible!)
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Re: Transposing help!

Postby Saxydragons » Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:01 pm

[quote="Charles Lawrence"]tcmschlosser,

Did you see the file comment? It sounds like you did not rename the downloaded file by removing the .ZIP extension. I had to add .ZIP on to the end because, as of now, this forum will not allow the upload of PDF files, unless I'm missing something. Groan! The file is a PDF, which I assume you should be able to open after simply removing .ZIP

I did not - tried it again and got it! This is great! Thanks for all the help!
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Re: Transposing help!

Postby michelp » Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:02 pm

tcmschlosser wrote:Ok then I can write the original part, then transpose it back to Horn in F correct?

Yes. That's what I had written in my "deleted" post, but I thought that I misunderstood your question. If you have to enter the notes in Finale from the transposed parts, do that first (using Charles' parameters), then, as you said, transpose to F.
I realize now that Charles made the same suggestion.
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Re: Transposing help!

Postby Charles Lawrence » Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:20 pm

To all who have downloaded my chart. Please note that my email listed in the chart is no longer valid. Use the email found in this forum for the latest info. Click on my name link to see my profile, or click on the email icon found in the panel to the right of my post.

I will have to revise my chart.

BTW: I have another version of my chart that is organized differently. This one has all transpositions of a given kind listed together. If you would like it, either email or PM me.

Enjoy! :)
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Re: Transposing help!

Postby motet » Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:24 pm

I will post my chart here and link to it in my signature if I can figure out how to do that.

Using "Change Instrument" to change to an instrument that doesn't exist is rather arcane; since I favor doing this with staff styles, I must admit I don't quite understand it. Does one change to an unused instrument and then use that? What about the present case where you want two instruments to play back as French horns? Perhaps Zuill will weigh in on this.

But if I'm understanding tcmschlosser correctly and all that's desired in the end is an F horn part, I would just enter the E horn passage as written into in the F horn part and then transpose that passage chromatically down a minor second with Utilities/Transpose. For A horn, up a major third. That's going to be much easier than fooling with staff transpositions and Change Instrument or staff styles, which is really only appropriate if you have mixed transpositions in the final part.
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Re: Transposing help!

Postby zuill » Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:37 pm

In most situations, change to an instrument that's close and then modify the Name and transposition. That's what I do. There are rare cases where that won't work. Then change the instrument with a staff style and expression. The advantage to the Change Instrument utility is that you will hear the correct instrument when inputting. Also, now with 25.2, you will hear the correct sounding pitch when entering in transposed view.

Zuill

P.S.: I just tested 25.2 and one does get the correct playback of transposed instruments when entering. So, the only drawback to the old Staff Style/Expression method for changing instruments is not hearing the change in sound until playback (which triggers the expression). The workaround of using a different layer for the other sound is a workaround, but not without its own drawbacks.
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Re: Transposing help!

Postby motet » Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:47 pm

I use piano for the input sound no matter what I'm inputting and don't have v. 25, but those are probably advantages for most people. But "change to an instrument that's close and then modify" is cumbersome and has drawbacks. I would like to see MM flesh this out a bit--either by allowing customization of the list of instruments or by adding an "other" that can be reused with any playback and transposition.
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Re: Transposing help!

Postby zuill » Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:08 pm

I think it would be a great idea to have a customization option for adding or changing an instrument. 2012 changed all that with the Score manager. It is a nice idea, but this is one of its limitations. We've brought this feature request up over the past several years, but I believe MM has a deaf ear in that area, as well as many others. I know they are on this forum and have even posted here (Michael Johnson, anyway). Maybe there's a new interest in knowing what we are saying.

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Re: Transposing help!

Postby motet » Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:22 pm

Here's a link to my transposition chart (though I don't think that's needed here, as I said).

http://www.finaleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14560
Last edited by motet on Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Transposing help!

Postby Saxydragons » Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:19 pm

Thanks again for the help. Reading through this is helping me with Finale a little better. I have another question as I'm getting through this part. It is 3 movements with the 1st & 3rd movements for Horn in A. The 2nd movement is for Horn in E. In doing it through score manager it tries to make a second part, like a duet, then it did to change the section I needed. What would the recommendation be to hand this in movements?
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Re: Transposing help!

Postby motet » Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:29 pm

Again, if your goal is an F horn part, I would forget the Score Manager and the staff transposition. Enter the music as written into your F horn part, then transpose it with Utilities/Transpose (down a chromatic minor second to convert Horn in E to F, up a major third to convert Horn in A to F. Much, much easier. You can select a range of measures and transpose only that range. If I have misunderstood your need, I apologize.
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Re: Transposing help!

Postby Saxydragons » Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:53 pm

Motet, I believe you are understanding correctly, I think I am just having a mental block on this and it isn't sinking in! :oops: To put it simple in my mind I am going to break it down...

1-start a new sheet for Horn in F
2-enter the A & E horn parts as written
3-transpose:
down a chromatic minor second to convert Horn in E to F
up a major third to convert Horn in A to F

For the key signature, when I create the F sheet to put in A & E - I need the key signature to match the A & E parts, when I do the transposing, it will in turn put in the correct signature for F.

I know I am being really simple and I apologize, I really am smarter than I am sounding! For some reason this is just not clicking in my mind and I need to K.I.S.S.!
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Re: Transposing help!

Postby motet » Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:57 pm

zuill wrote:I know they [MakeMusic] are on this forum and have even posted here (Michael Johnson, anyway). Maybe there's a new interest in knowing what we are saying.

And perhaps they'll reconsider closing the old forums when their new one fails to take off. It would certainly be to their advantage to have users find these discussions.
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Re: Transposing help!

Postby motet » Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:07 pm

tcmschlosser, I didn't realize your piece had key signatures, which is unusual for horn in A (slightly less so for horn in E). Is it by Richard Strauss?

The simplest thing then would be to add a new blank staff in the score manager. Change its transposition to Other and set it up for E transposition per Charles. Change the key signature as appropriate for that movement and enter the music in that new staff. When you are through, copy it into the F horn part, which will transpose it for you. Then change the blank staff transposition to A and repeat for the other movements. (Don't worry about the music already entered for E horn, since you've already copied it.) Delete the scratch staff when you're done. That way, you don't have to mess with Change Instrument.

EDIT: I'm realizing that even if your A and E horns don't have key signatures, there is an issue with the F horn's key signature. In that case, set the key signature to concert E or A as appropriate for the movement and use the option "Hide key signature and show all accidentals" and just enter music as written into the F part and transpose afterward as I said before. Most horn players, including professionals, prefer a part without a key signature. Otherwise, in your case, there will be lots of sharps in the key signature.

This is all so complicated, I'm not surprised you're finding it confusing.
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Re: Transposing help!

Postby Saxydragons » Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:52 pm

It is actually Mozart - Violin Concerto. This is what I run across for a community orchestra with a limited budget. They get a piece and I have to deal with the rest! :shock: Anyway, I guess it really doesn't have a key signature....I am just thinking that way - thinking in modern terms!

I will give it a shot, both formats actually and see which one will work better. I have working on this for over 2 weeks! Pulling my hair out! I'm a little glad that I'm not the only one finding this complicated. I have looked at other programs to see if there was a way to do it someplace else, but was running across the same issue in all of them. This is just something that would not be in the "norm" for a program to predict!
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Re: Transposing help!

Postby zuill » Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:13 pm

I think that most Mozart horn parts are key-signature-less. In other words, no key signature. "Set your score up for horn in F without a key signature and it should work." I guess I should test it. Update: not exactly the way to go. Too many issues. Setting up another staff and copy/paste is probably easier.

Which concerto?

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Re: Transposing help!

Postby zuill » Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:44 pm

Rather than editing my last post, my experimentation leads to this simple approach:

1. Use 1 staff. Start with the Horn in F, but change the transposition to match the horn (A or E) in use at that time.

2. As Motet suggested, change to a blank Staff (using change instrument) for the next transposition, but change the transposition for that section (find the change in the Score Manager via the drop-down list) to match the Horn used. Don't worry about the staff name or even the sound (piano will be chosen automatically).

3. When all the input is done, change the whole staff back to Horn in F. If you choose to not use a key signature, that can be selected. Otherwise, you're done.

If you need help, contact me via PM and we might be able to work out a plan which will get the job done.

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Re: Transposing help!

Postby motet » Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:49 am

You might suggest to your horn players that they take a crack at transposing at sight--that's what most players do. For classical-era stuff like Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven, the written notes are almost exclusively limited to the overtone series--C G C E G Bb C D E G--so it's not as hard as it may seem. It will be good for their musicianship and horn playing. I remember when I first encountered it and I caught on quickly. But if you must supply an F part, make it key-signatureless.
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Re: Transposing help!

Postby Saxydragons » Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:39 pm

Thank you everyone for all the help! I'm getting through this finally and it is making sense - even better.

2 more questions, although they are happening here, I have run across this before.

#1 - I have 3 movement each with a different time signature. When I change the time signature at the beginning of the new movement, (which is a new system) it still shows the new time signature in the previous system. How do I not get it to do that?

#2 - One of the movements has a pick up measure - how do I get a pick up measure that is not at the beginning of the piece but within the piece?
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