Music Spacing Library in Maestro Default template

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Graeme Gilmore
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Post by Graeme Gilmore » Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:22 am

Can someone tell me what the spacing option is that comes in the template "Maestro Font Default.ftmx." When I tried sequentially using the various options in the Music Spacing Library, I could not get any of them to duplicate it.

Thanks,
Graeme Gilmore


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zuill
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Post by zuill » Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:33 am

If your goal is to duplicate it for use in another document, open up the default template and save your own Library for the Spacing settings.

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Post by BuonTempi » Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:51 am

From Document Options > Music Spacing > Spacing Widths:
Screen Shot.png
Screen Shot.png (32.85 KiB) Viewed 17505 times

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:12 pm

That's only part of the spacing options. The main page shows more.

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Charles Lawrence
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Post by Charles Lawrence » Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:54 pm

There is currently no way to determine which libraries are loaded into a document. This has been a feature that has been wished for a long time. The paradigm used for libraries would have to be completely revamped if this were to become a reality. Consider the fact that loaded libraries are cumulative and no "metadata" detailing a library exists. Consider that individual entries in a given library can be deleted. Is the library then loaded, being only a partial of itself? These and other considerations make it impractical to know what libraries are loaded. You can do what Zuill suggests and save your own library consisting of only the "Music Spacing" category. It may be that the spacings in the default template are not included as a separate library in the Music Spacing library folder included with Finale. If you tried them all and none matched, then I suspect this may be the reason.
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Graeme Gilmore
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Post by Graeme Gilmore » Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:56 am

My interest comes from wanting to know with precision what music spacing Finale decided would be in their Maestro default template. It is because it did not seem to match any of the music spacing library choices and is not easy to determine in other ways that I became intrigued.
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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:20 am

Graeme Gilmore wrote:My interest comes from wanting to know with precision what music spacing Finale decided would be in their Maestro default template. It is because it did not seem to match any of the music spacing library choices and is not easy to determine in other ways that I became intrigued.
Graeme Gilmore,

What is your definition of music spacing?
In Other Words:
What are you thinking of when you are talking about ‘music spacing’?

I suppose that a Finale music spacing library only contains the settings in
Document Options - Music Spacing
plus the settings in the (sub-)dialog Spacing Widths.
* Is that your definition of music spacing?

One could also define ‘music spacing’ as everything that affects horizontal spacing in the layout, including space before/after items such as (e. g.) tied notes, barlines, clefs, key signatures, time signatures, note accidentals, flags, ledger lines, entries, repeat bars.
* Is that your definition of music spacing?
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Graeme Gilmore
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Post by Graeme Gilmore » Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:54 am

My definition of music spacing for this issue is what Finale includes in a Music Spacing library file. My assumption was that the Maestro font template used one of those spacings, When I couldn't get the library files to duplicate the spacing in the template, I began to wonder if the template used a different spacing, which one could save as a music spacing library file. Or, had I done something wrong and one of the Music Spacing Library files actually is the one used in the Maestro template.
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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:17 pm

Graeme Gilmore wrote:My definition of music spacing for this issue is what Finale includes in a Music Spacing library file …
If I understand you correctly, you define spacing as {the internal data structure in a Music Spacing library file}, right?

Graeme Gilmore wrote:… I couldn't get the library files to duplicate the spacing in the template …
We need more info from you:

* What were your steps, exactly, when you tried “to duplicate the spacing in the template”?
* What happened, that you did not expect?
* What did not happen that you had expected?

If you can provide us with reproduce-able steps, we might be able to determine whether you had “done something wrong”.

The better we understand, the better we can help.
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Graeme Gilmore
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Post by Graeme Gilmore » Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:17 am

I formatted a file using the Masestro template. Then I sequentially loaded the various Music Spacing library files and reformated. Between each library file, I reverted to the Meastro template formatting. At least when I did it, none of the library music spacing choices duplicated the spacing of the Maestro default spacing.

My questions is directed at confirming whether the music spacing of the Maestro template is in fact unique and not duplicated by any of the Music Spacing Library options. Or, that I have made an error and the spacing does match one of the Music Spacing library options.

I also asked this on the MakeMusic Community Forum. It was identified there as the "Fibonacci Spacing" option. When I tried it that seems to work. I must have done something wrong when trying the various spacing options previously.
Graeme Gilmore


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Charles Lawrence
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Post by Charles Lawrence » Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:03 pm

Start from a new document with no libraries loaded, "File->New->Document Without Libraries", then load a given library, enter some notes and compare spacing with the default document. There may be other libraries that influence the final spacing in the default document that won't be there if you start with a document without any libraries. It might be hard to tell. I don't know.

FYI: You might consider using JW Note Spacing, a plug-in from Jari. It's also available for 64 bit F25 and above.
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N Grossingink
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Post by N Grossingink » Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:25 pm

Charles Lawrence wrote:There may be other libraries that influence the final spacing in the default document that won't be there if you start with a document without any libraries.
The "Document Without Libraries" actually does contain a spacing library, the so-called "Fibonacci Spacing", the same as found in the Maestro default file. I think "without libraries" means expressions, articulations, chords, smart shapes, and staff styles.

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Charles Lawrence
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Post by Charles Lawrence » Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:48 pm

N Grossingink wrote:
Charles Lawrence wrote:There may be other libraries that influence the final spacing in the default document that won't be there if you start with a document without any libraries.
The "Document Without Libraries" actually does contain a spacing library, the so-called "Fibonacci Spacing", the same as found in the Maestro default file. I think "without libraries" means expressions, articulations, chords, smart shapes, and staff styles.

N.
If this is true, and I have no reason to doubt you, then that is the answer to Graeme's question. This is consistent with the answer he received from the other forum. I always assumed a document without libraries meant just that, but when you think about it, since you can enter notes into said document, it must have spacing intelligence of some kind.

A mathematical aside: The JW Note Spacing plug-in has spacings based on the "Golden Ratio" which is related to Fibonacci numbers in that the ratio of any two consecutive Fibonacci numbers approaches the Golden Ratio, the higher you go in the Fibonacci numbers. There is no need to explore this mathematically any further, since this is not a math course. Suffice it to say that the Fibonacci spacing in the library is the same as the Golden Rule spacing in the plug-in. If this is not so, then please correct me.
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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Sat Feb 11, 2017 8:23 pm

Charles Lawrence wrote:… A mathematical aside: The JW Note Spacing plug-in has spacings based on the "Golden Ratio" which is related to Fibonacci numbers in that the ratio of any two consecutive Fibonacci numbers approaches the Golden Ratio, the higher you go in the Fibonacci numbers. There is no need to explore this mathematically any further, since this is not a math course. Suffice it to say that the Fibonacci spacing in the library is the same as the Golden Rule spacing in the plug-in. If this is not so, then please correct me.
Indeed, Fibonacci Spacing is the same as Golden Ratio Spacing.
If you look in the dialog box Spacing Widths, then you will see that the Scaling Factor is 1.618 - which is a fine, practical approximation to the Golden Ratio.
In honor of Fibonacci the value of the Golden Ratio is often referred to by the Greek letter φ (phi).
The exact formula:
φ = ½ * (1 + √5) = 1.618033988749895…

For a tighter spacing, try e. g. the square root of 2 as Scaling Factor.
√2 = 1.414…
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motet
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Post by motet » Sat Feb 11, 2017 8:57 pm

The "Golden Rule" is "Do unto others..." :)

Using irrational or transcendental numbers is fun, but there's nothing special about them as a music-spacing parameter and "Fibonacci spacing" is a bit of a hype designed to sound sophisticated when it's not. 1.5 will be equally pleasing depending on your tastes.

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Charles Lawrence
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Post by Charles Lawrence » Sun Feb 12, 2017 12:42 am

motet,

I did not catch that I wrote the Golden Rule instead of the Golden Ratio. I thought it was "Whoever has the gold makes the rules!" :lol:

Peter,

I omitted the mathematical details to save the reader's sanity. Since you bring it up, a few more details for the mathematically inclined. The Golden Ratio, usually written with a capital Greek letter Phi Φ, can be defined as the number whose square is found by adding 1, i.e. Φ² = Φ + 1. Any high school, and maybe even today's middle school, algebra student can solve this quadratic equation and get the two roots, (1 ± √5)/2. The positive root is denoted with the capital Greek Phi Φ = (1 + √5)/2 = 1.618033988749895…; the negative root is denoted with the negative lower case Greek phi -φ = (1-√5)/2 = -0.618033988749895…; or φ = (√5 - 1)/2 = 0.618033988749895…; note that the decimal parts are the same; further note that φ = Φ - 1 and that Φ x φ = 1.

The Greek mathematician Euclid (~300 BCE) considered a point G on a unit line such that the ratio of the smaller part of this line, GB, to the larger part AG, (i.e. the ratio GB/AG), is the SAME as the ratio of the larger part, AG, to the whole line AB (i.e. is the same as the ratio AG/AB). This is the Golden Ratio.

<--------- 1 --------->
A............G.......B
|......g.....|..1–g..|

Written as an equation:
GB/AG = AG/AB or using the lengths of the line (1-g)/g = g/1
Again, the easy algebra gives 1 - g = g² or g² + g = 1; we have two numbers when added to their squares gives 1.
Here we have the roots of this quadratic equation g = (-1 ± √5)/2. For the purposes of the geometric solution, we throw away the negative root giving g = (-1 + √5)/2 or g = (√5 -1)2. Lo and behold, this is just φ from above. Also note that the negative root is just -Φ.

Math and physics is my thing, so I hope I have not overwhelmed any of my Finale compadres.
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Post by motet » Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:27 am

Renaissance painters considered a rectangle whose sides observe the golden ratio to be pleasing, and many paintings follow this.

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Post by Anders Hedelin » Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:14 pm

I'm sorry, but I have the impression that you are not exactly answering the original question, and that you are perhaps overcomplicating things a bit. I had a similar issue when I created a new set of allotments for cues in orchestral parts (and saved those as a new spacing library), because I thought the default spacing was too wide for the small notes of the cues. When I wanted to go back to the 'default spacing', to make spacing adjustments of the regular notes of the parts themself, I couldn't find it, i.e. I couldn't find what to reload anywhere, nor could I recreate or even find info about the original default settings.
So, my question is, perhaps not quite the same as Graeme's, but similar: Is it really impossible to find Finale's default music spacing settings, or did I overlook something?
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motet
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Post by motet » Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:50 pm

I think it's been discussed above, but open a default document and look at the spacing options.

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Post by Peter Thomsen » Sun Feb 12, 2017 6:09 pm

Anders Hedelin wrote:… Is it really impossible to find Finale's default music spacing settings, or did I overlook something? …
If you create a new Document Without Libraries, you will get an empty document with Finale’s default spacing (= Fibonacci Spacing = Golden Ratio Spacing).
In the dialog box Spacing Widths you will see that a Document Without Libraries by default uses a Scaling Factor of 1.618 (= φ).

The ancient Greeks considered the Golden Ratio (= 1.618) to be a particular beautiful ratio, perhaps because it can be seen in the Nature.

Also square root 2 (= 1.414) can be seen in the Nature.

But in the end it is a matter of taste.

If you better like the layout look that comes from a Scaling Factor of 1.5, then - by all means - use 1.5 as scaling Factor.
Many engravers find that Finale’s default layout settings “out-of-the-box” (including music spacing settings such as Scaling Factor & Reference Width) are not particularly good.
And they set up their own templates - with custom settings for Music Spacing, Line Thicknesses, &c. &c.

I hope that this is clear?
If not, ask again.
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Post by N Grossingink » Sun Feb 12, 2017 6:27 pm

Anders Hedelin wrote:I'm sorry, but I have the impression that you are not exactly answering the original question, and that you are perhaps overcomplicating things a bit. I had a similar issue when I created a new set of allotments for cues in orchestral parts (and saved those as a new spacing library), because I thought the default spacing was too wide for the small notes of the cues. When I wanted to go back to the 'default spacing', to make spacing adjustments of the regular notes of the parts themself, I couldn't find it, i.e. I couldn't find what to reload anywhere, nor could I recreate or even find info about the original default settings.
So, my question is, perhaps not quite the same as Graeme's, but similar: Is it really impossible to find Finale's default music spacing settings, or did I overlook something?
Anders
As far as I know, all of the templates and default files that come with Finale contain a spacing library called "Fibonacci Spacing". I checked many, not all, and found this to be the case. If you change the spacing in a file for any reason and want to get back where you started, find the Finale "Library File" called Fibonacci Spacing and load that into the file. Don't take my word for it - try it yourself. Just take screenshots as you go to make sure you know exactly what's what.

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Post by Anders Hedelin » Sun Feb 12, 2017 6:33 pm

Thank you N. I'll try that next time! I think you just confirmed that this is not a 'matter of course' thing. I mean, there is no 'reset' button for this, as there is in many other tools.
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