Broadway Copyist Text Hard Space

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johnmouse
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Post by johnmouse » Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:54 pm

Windows10, Finale 25.2.0.92

I'm trying to create a lead sheet using the handwritten template. In the document options, the font for lyrics is set to Broadway Copyist Text. I'm trying to enter a hard space (CTRL+Space bar) but it inserts a character (a combination of left parenthesis and underscore following). This problem also occurs using the option of going into the lyrics window and inserting it from the menu. The same happens with Broadway Copyist Text Ext font.

Any ideas as to how one creates a hard space with this font, or is it not possible? Under the gun here, and need to get this project completed by this afternoon.

JJ


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N Grossingink
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Post by N Grossingink » Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:20 pm

Try changing just the hard space to Times or Hellvetica.

N.
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miker
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Post by miker » Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:22 pm

That certainly sounds like a problem in the font mapping, and MM should be notified.

In the meantime, can you enter the "wrong" character, and then change it to another font where the hard space works? If you need it more than once, you should be able to copy and paste it.

Dang; N. beat me to it!
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johnmouse
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Post by johnmouse » Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:23 pm

Perfect! Thanks!

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johnmouse
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Post by johnmouse » Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:29 pm

miker wrote:That certainly sounds like a problem in the font mapping, and MM should be notified.
Of maybe it was a "feature?" :wink:

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johnmouse
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Post by johnmouse » Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:45 pm

Created a sample for the MM gurus to see. Will it be fixed in the next update? Who knows?!

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:53 pm

Another way to get a hard space is to do it the old fashioned way. Choose a blank character from the character map and insert that. Easier than changing fonts. [Type alt-032] Edit: Ignore this advice.

Zuill

P.S.: Oops. Forget that. Use alt-0202 instead.
Last edited by zuill on Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:13 pm

zuill wrote:… Type alt-032. That works for me …
I thought that ASCI #32 was the “soft” space.
Obviously I must be wrong since it works for you as a “hard” space.
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zuill
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Post by zuill » Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:31 pm

Oops. Try alt-0202 instead.

Zuill
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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:37 pm

For me, character #202 works in Broadway Copyist Text.

On The Other Hand, in Broadway Copyist Text Extended it is character #160 that works.
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zuill
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Post by zuill » Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:40 pm

Thank you Peter.

Zuill
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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:33 am

Many years ago I noted that

Mac text fonts have a “non-breaking space” in character slot #202.

Windows text fonts have a “non-breaking space” in character slot #160.

I wonder:

Was the Broadway Copyist Text font developed by a Mac user? (non-breaking space in character slot #202)

Was the Broadway Copyist Text Extended font developed by a Windows user? (non-breaking space in character slot #160)
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johnmouse
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Post by johnmouse » Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:13 pm

Thanks, all, for those suggestions. I wasn't sure if a blank character would generate a hard space.

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Post by johnmouse » Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:41 pm

Heard back on my ticket to MM. Before I do what they suggest, I'd rather hear from you folks.

The problem occurred on my laptop (Win10; Finale25). The problem also occurs on my desktop (Win10; Finale25). Even in using a totally new file. It also occurs in Finale 2014.5.

The propeller heads at MM suggested the following:
=======
Thanks for contacting MakeMusic Customer Success! I've checked out the test document that you sent, and it seems like this issue may be system specific, so try following these steps to clear Finale's preferences:

1. Save all of your work and get ready to exit the program.
2. Choose Edit > Preferences (Windows) or Finale > Preferences (Mac).
3. Click the Reset All Preferences button at the bottom of the preferences window.
4. When prompted with a message asking if you are sure you would like to continue, choose Yes.
5. Once the program has closed, restart your computer.
6. Relaunch Finale.
========

Before I do that (I really don't want to lose my preferences, it took too damned long to get them to where I want them!) do any of you think that will help, or do you agree that this is a key mapping problem within the font itself? Thanks again for your perspective.

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N Grossingink
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Post by N Grossingink » Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:55 pm

I think it's a problem with Finale itself, the way the software handles fonts. One of my clients uses a font (Met Times) that always worked, until Finale 2012. The problems there are able to be worked around simply by typing over the incorrect glyph using the correct keystroke. The font is completely broken in Finale 2014, 2014.5 and 25, and a few other fonts (text fonts) have problems too. I only use Finale 2012 because of these problems.

As long as you have a workaround for the hard space, consider yourself lucky. I wouldn't mess with the preferences because I don't think that's where the problem lies.

N.
N. Grossingink
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zuill
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Post by zuill » Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:53 pm

I'm not sure why MM would say it is a problem with anything but the Font itself. Look in the Documentation and you'll see that the slot reserved for the hard space has the very character that you see when trying to place a hard space. Did they not look in their own documentation?

Zuill

P.S.: If you want to confirm this simply, in the Lyrics Window, with Times or Finale Lyrics, choose to insert a symbol. Navigate to slot 160 and it says No-Break Space. When in Broadway Copyist text, the same slot shows the glyph you are seeing. This slot is hard wired to ctrl-Space Bar, so whatever font you are using, you will get slot 160.
Attachments
Broadway Copyist Text Character 160.zip
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zuill
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Post by zuill » Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:02 pm

Since Ctrl-Spacebar is easy to do, and works with most of the other text fonts used for lyrics, you might want to continue to do just that and allow that glyph to remain while entering. Then, when done, use text Search and Replace, select Lyrics only, and then choose to replace Alt-0160 with Alt-0202. I just tested it and it works quite well. This would be the easiest workaround I can think of.

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motet
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Post by motet » Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:38 pm

johnmouse wrote:I really don't want to lose my preferences, it took too damned long to get them to where I want them!
I think their advice of resetting preferences is unlikely to help, but you can try it less destructively by quitting Finale, navigating to the AppData folder for Finale 25, and moving finale.ini to the trash. Launch Finale and see if the problem is solved. If it isn't, quit, open the trash, and restore FINALE.INI (choosing Move and Replace).

Since they seem to offer this advice indiscriminately, it might be a good feature for Finale to have a "restore preferences" button for when resetting doesn't work.

Yesterday, though, I was fooling around with my toolbar settings, made a mess, and decided to go back to a backup of finale.ini, which failed to restore the toolbars, so that information must be stored in the Windows registry or elsewhere.

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Post by johnmouse » Sun Feb 12, 2017 12:46 am

As I figured, it did not work. My poison email pen is out to give them hell. :evil:
Zuill is exactly correct. Thanks for that portion of the file documentation!

JJ

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Sun Feb 12, 2017 12:49 am

Save your breath (or poison email ink). They don't want to be confused with the facts (or the truth).

Zuill
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Jay Emmes
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Post by Jay Emmes » Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:37 am

zuill wrote:They don't want to be confused with the facts (or the truth).
How very 2017. :twisted:
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johnmouse
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Post by johnmouse » Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:28 pm

The "support" person from MM was a young woman. from the looks of her profile pic, I was programming computers in COBOL using punch cards before she was even thought of; possibly before her parents were dating. I proved the point about slot 160 using several different font maps, and told her that MM had to fix their font; and to close my ticket. Haven't heard a word since.

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johnmouse
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Post by johnmouse » Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:39 pm

And now she sends me an email with the link to the font information. Is MM tech support team always this stupid? I replied back to her, and I wasn't very nice either. :x

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:46 pm

Okay. If she dares to look at the documentation, 0160 is assigned to the glyph you see. It is not a blank character, as is used by other text fonts for a hard space.

Zuill
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johnmouse
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Post by johnmouse » Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:06 pm

zuill wrote:Okay. If she dares to look at the documentation, 0160 is assigned to the glyph you see. It is not a blank character, as is used by other text fonts for a hard space. Zuill
Which I pointed out to her. Here's the excerpt from my email response back to her:

"...No, that did not work. Not only did it not work, it took me 20 minutes (which I'll never get back) to set my preferences back to what I wanted.
This error occurs on both my laptop and my desktop computers.

In Times New Roman, key map slot 160 is the No-Break Space (Ctrl-Space bar). This holds true for the Arial, Calibri, Century, and Courier New fonts. In Broadway Copyist Text, the glyph in my example is what is assigned to slot 160 (this is according to MM documentation
<https://usermanuals.finalemusic.com/Pri ... racter_Set>).
Clearly, the key mapping for this font is incorrect. The fix is for MM to correct slot 160."


Her reply back to me was to make sure I was looking at the proper documentation, and linked to exactly the link I emailed her to begin with. MM support either doesn't listen, or doesn't care. Those are the only two choices AFAIC.

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