hyphen question: suo / YouTube

[Hector Pascal]

Hi all,

I am setting the italian word "suo" in a new choir piece, and I am wondering if it is OK to set it as 2 syllables with a hyphen, i.e.: su-o.

In this Youtube, Verdi sets it as one syllable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-YTM5ZZlyc

See 0:35 and 1:39, in particular...

Any advice appreciated.

Cheers,
Hector Pascal.

PS: I researched 2 hyphenation tools:
suo is recommended by https://www.ushuaia.pl/hyphen/?ln=en ;
su-o is recommended by http://www.sillabare.it/divisione-in-si ... illabe.php

[miker]

Hector,

Is the word sung on one note or two? If it's over two, and the word is broken over the notes, then you need the hyphen. If it's on a single note, or, if the syllables are elided and sung on a single note, then you wouldn't use the hyphen.

It's really a judgement call, depending on how it's sung.

[N Grossingink]

How about this-

N.

Lyric.png (114.79 KiB) Viewed 6957 times

[Hector Pascal]

Thank, Mike and N.

I have just begun to compose the setting. I haven't actually set the word "suo" yet.

[Edit: I am on the right track now, as I have learnt that it is ok to elide the syllables alla Verdi, and it is also ok to set the two syllables to two separate notes with a hyphen].

N., I haven't ever used that elision scoop before, nor seen it in action, but am glad to have made its acquaintance in your post.

Cheers,
Hector.

[miker]

If "suo" is a single word (I don't know any Italian) then the elision isn't needed. Just put it under the note. The elision is used where two words (or an ending syllable and a beginning syllable) are sung on a single note.

[Peter Thomsen]

As Far As I Can Tell, the notation where two consecutive vowels are sung on the same pitch, is a matter of notational practice.

In danish notational practice it is common that you “rhythmetize” the duration of the two vowels, with two (shorter) note values of the same pitch.

But in italian notational practice it seems common that you notate just one (longer) note value, and leave the “rhythmical vowel distribution” to the singer.

[motet]

I'm hardly an expert, but I think "suo" is less-distinctly two syllables than "Dio," say. Pronounced more like "swo," hence the examples in opera of being on one syllable. If I had to guess, I would think su-o could be on two syllables if desired and sung "su - o."

[MikeHalloran]

I'm hardly an expert, but I think "suo" is less-distinctly two syllables than "Dio," say. Pronounced more like "swo," hence the examples in opera of being on one syllable. If I had to guess, I would think su-o could be on two syllables if desired and sung "su - o."

Having sung a lot of Italian opera...

I have never seen the curved elision symbol except in the following: Checking a few Ricordi scores, it's used to indicate an elision for two words together — de_in below is an example—without it, you'd put a glottal stop on in. If I saw it in a score otherwise, I'd be asking the conductor what the significance of having it curved was. "Because it is there and I can use it" is the wrong answer.

It depends on the context but normally both vowels are sung on one note—unless there are two of different pitches as below. It would only be "swo" if the tempo is brisk and written on one note. Here's an example from Lucia...

Notice that pie is on an eighth note — if slower, both vowels would be articulated but the notation wouldn't change.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-457Hz8UaA

[MikeHalloran]

Back to the OP.

I'd put a hyphen unless the notes are so close that inserting one would cause a spacing issue as in the excerpt from Lucia di Lammermore that I posted.

In choral music, it's not a bad idea to split it over two notes when on the same pitch even though, in opera, one wouldn't. It's understood that multiple vowels on a note are all given equal weight.

I don't recall any sung diphthongs in Italian that don't begin with qu (quelle is pronounced, kwele) though, in a rapid passage, they can't really be avoided such as the pie example I gave earlier.

Again, Lucia... There are some notes in Raimundo's first aria with three vowels to a note. Having sung the role under four conductors and as many performance coaches, one of the things I listen for is how Italian and non-Italian basses sing them. It was the first major role I learned in that language and I still remember trying to wrap my brain and tongue around it in the 1970s.

I'm trying to find a link with the page and the aria but the ones I keep finding are for the score and entire opera.

[zuill]

Suo is a one syllable word. If one wants to hyphenate it, I suppose it could be done, but probably not a good idea. I know this is sometimes done English. For example, fire is a one syllable word, but Jim Morrison easily made it into two syllables.

Zuill

[MikeHalloran]

Suo is a one syllable word. If one wants to hyphenate it, I suppose it could be done, but probably not a good idea. I know this is sometimes done English. For example, fire is a one syllable word, but Jim Morrison easily made it into two syllables.

Zuill

I'll go with Pablo Elvira, Donizetti and my 45 years of experience on this one. If Donezitti put suo on two notes, you can too.

One more time: When singing Italian, all the vowels are pronounced including those on a single syllable (qu being an exception). Normally, that one syllable is on one note and the singer is expected to articulate it. If on two notes and the second vowel is to be sung on that second note, it is hyphenated unless unnecessary due to spacing. Find tuo in this example where the 'o' is on the last note and you'll see the hyphen:

http://www.elizabethparcells.com/PDF%20 ... izetti.pdf

Normally, however, all of the vowels are sung on the first note and the last vowel is used for subsequent notes over the slur. Again, refer to the above example. As for sung examples of the above, many videos and recordings of the Mad Scene from Lucia... pick your favorite.

[MikeHalloran]

How about this-

N.

Lyric.png

That is the wrong use. That symbol is used to join two words on one note as is so often done in Italian. You'll see many examples on the pages I linked.

[zuill]

My advice was based on my experience with suo. Vergin Tutto Amor by Durante is one example. There are other similar words that are most often not split, but can be at times. Mio comes to mind.

So, as in English, there are situations where the composer has used artistic judgment.

Zuill