Transposing instruments from scanned score

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daveclilverd
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Post by daveclilverd » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:23 pm

Hello!
Apologies if this question has already been answered - I have read lots of posts on handling transposing instruments, but not found the answer I'm looking for!

I have a score (a Beethoven wind Octet) that I have imported into Finale 2014.5 (Windows) by converting a PDF file into MusicXML (using the new Music-to-XML app from Musitek) and then reading that file into Finale.

All the parts show with the correct key signatures to match the appropriate transpositions for the relevant instrument, but they all play back as if they are at concert pitch (with that key signature). Looking in the Score Manager there is no transposition listed for any of the transposing instruments.

If I apply the correct transposition (hoping to just effect the playback pitches) the notes in the displayed score are also moved by the transposition interval - which of course means they are now wrong for the part!

I've tried several things to manually correct the score, but always ended up in a mess...!! Could someone please help me by explaining what the correct procedure would be to apply the correct transpositions to the instruments that need it (so they playback correctly) but without physically changing the written note pitches?

Any help would be much appreciated.

Many thanks,
Dave.


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zuill
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Post by zuill » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:38 pm

We might need to see the score itself to be able to test a quick way. We don't know all we need to know from your explanation. For example, have the transposing staves been set to independent key signatures? That is a big deal. Importing can cause all kinds of trouble if one doesn't know how importing gets the right look, but has to manipulate in the background to get that result.

Zuill
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daveclilverd
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Post by daveclilverd » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:50 pm

Thanks for the quick reply. I have attached a Finale file (.musx) after importing the MusicXML file. I haven't done anything else to it!
example.zip
(130.96 KiB) Downloaded 208 times
Many thanks,
Dave.

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motet
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Post by motet » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:41 pm

You'd think the Musitek people would know about transposing instruments. How asinine. I think all you need do is uncheck "independent key signature" in all the staves with flats, then go into the score manager and apply transpositions to the appropriate staves.

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motet
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Post by motet » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:48 pm

Ugh. Since the Eb horns are on top, it took C major for the key of the piece, so you need to change the key signature to Eb after clearing "independent key signature." That should transpose everything properly. Then set the transposition on the various staves.

But the horns are an octave too high, so you need to fix that, too.

There are many, many mistakes. You have your work cut out for you, I'm afraid.

daveclilverd
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Post by daveclilverd » Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:03 pm

Thanks for the suggestion - but that didn't work for me (assuming I understood your instructions correctly...?). When I add the transposition in the Score Manager that still shifts the note pitches (and so they end up wrong)....? What did I miss?

daveclilverd
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Post by daveclilverd » Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:05 pm

Sorry - my last reply 'crossed' with yours. I will have another look based on your last comment.
Thanks,
Dave.

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miker
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Post by miker » Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:06 pm

I had the same sort of problem with a scanned score. There were no transposing instruments, but there were multiple key changes. And it was a real dog's breakfast, until I twigged to the Independent Key Signatures. Just something else to look for.

I suspect there would have been fewer problems with the full SmartScore. The key signatures could have been set correctly for each staff, during the editing stage. This is something missing in the PDF to XML product, which makes it no more useful that the SmartScore Lite that used to be packaged with Finale. Here's a snippet from the SSP help manual:
transpose.png
transpose.png (69.83 KiB) Viewed 13938 times

To the OP: As a Finale owner, you can purchase the full SmartScore at half price. It's certainly worth it, if you plan to do any more scanning.
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zuill
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Post by zuill » Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:08 pm

This file is more than a mess. Part of the problem is the independent key signatures. Also, the Piano Grand Staff groupings is wrong. No proper assignment of instruments in the score manager, etc.

Unless someone knows Finale inside out, importing PDF files can be more complicated than starting from scratch and entering all the notes manually.

See attached file. It's a start. Some of the accidentals didn't get imported properly from the PDF, so you need to go measure by measure to proof read. Also, there's work to be done with expressions and articulations.

Zuill
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PDF import example Revised.musx
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miker
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Post by miker » Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:17 pm

But most (all?) of this could have been corrected in SmartScore, before importing into Finale.

Yes, it means learning another program. But it can still be a time saver. Don't blame the scanning process. It makes mistakes. So do I, when entering directly into Finale. When I make a mistake entering into Finale, I correct it. If someone send me a score with a mistake, I correct it. When the scan makes a mistake, I correct it. I don't bring it into Finale, and complain that scanning is no good, because there's a mistake.

Since our new choral season is starting, I have over 20 scores to generate learning tracks for. I don't think anybody - and I include you, Zuill - could do them as quickly as I can with scanning.
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N Grossingink
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Post by N Grossingink » Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:48 pm

I don't have any experience with scanning and the resulting conversion into Finale. But I do have experience copying passages into a file and transposing the incorrectly pitched result to display the desired pitches. Here's what I'd do:

√ Make a new, clean score template for wind octet set in the key of E flat major, all instruments having the proper staff transposition settings.
√ Copy in the entries from the original file - notes, rests, expressions, articulations, text items; nothing else.
√ For staves where the pitches are off, use Transposition > Chromatic at the proper interval and direction to fix the pitches. If there are later key changes, enter the key change and the pitches should continue to be correct.

N.
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motet
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Post by motet » Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:02 pm

Dave, go through all the staves and uncheck "independent key signature." Everything should then be in C major. Then change the key signature to Eb major. Transpose the two horn staves down an octave. Finally, go to the score manager and set up transposition for clarinets and horns. I did this and it worked.

You probably want horns in F rather than Eb, but for Eb transposition, pick custom and set interval = 5, key alter = 3.

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:29 pm

Finale has a Horn in Eb in the list so it can be automated.

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daveclilverd
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Post by daveclilverd » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:23 pm

Thanks everyone for you comments and advice.

Miker - I wasn't complaining about the results of scanning, I expect to have to do a fair amount of rework on an imported score. I was just asking for help on how to do part of that re-work..!!! (although reading your comments again, I'm not sure they were directed at me....?)

I just wish that I had realised that as a Finale owner I could have purchased the full version of SmartScore at half price before I invested in the Music-to-XML app - which I only did because I couldn't justify the expense of the full product...!!! Oh well, you live and learn I suppose.

Thanks again for your help guys.

Kind regards,
Dave.

daveclilverd
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Post by daveclilverd » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:27 am

motet wrote:Dave, go through all the staves and uncheck "independent key signature." Everything should then be in C major. Then change the key signature to Eb major. Transpose the two horn staves down an octave. Finally, go to the score manager and set up transposition for clarinets and horns. I did this and it worked.

You probably want horns in F rather than Eb, but for Eb transposition, pick custom and set interval = 5, key alter = 3.
Thanks Motet - I followed your instructions and (as you predicted!) it worked beautifully. (and I do need Horns in Eb)

Thanks again all.

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miker
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Post by miker » Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:31 pm

Dave,

No, my comments about scanning were not directed to you!

You might want to contact SmartScore. If you tell them you're unhappy, they may be willing to apply the purchase price of Music to XML to an upgrade to SSP. It never hurts to ask!
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daveclilverd
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Post by daveclilverd » Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:36 pm

miker wrote:Dave,

No, my comments about scanning were not directed to you!

You might want to contact SmartScore. If you tell them you're unhappy, they may be willing to apply the purchase price of Music to XML to an upgrade to SSP. It never hurts to ask!
Hi Mike,
I did - and they will...!!!
Cheers,
Dave.

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miker
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Post by miker » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:15 pm

Very good! Be sure to post any questions you have either on the SSP forum, or feel free to contact me via PM.
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MikeHalloran
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Post by MikeHalloran » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:26 am

daveclilverd wrote:
miker wrote:Dave,

No, my comments about scanning were not directed to you!

You might want to contact SmartScore. If you tell them you're unhappy, they may be willing to apply the purchase price of Music to XML to an upgrade to SSP. It never hurts to ask!
Hi Mike,
I did - and they will...!!!
Cheers,
Dave.
That's great.

People ask me which to buy and I always recommend the full product. If I read the website correctly, one doesn't need a license for Finale to buy SmartScore X2 Pro for $199. All you need is the link
https://store.makemusic.com/store/?tab=finale
Go to the Recommended Products tab. I can't seem to find a link that goes directly to it.

I use Apple's Image Capture.app to scan—works with any scanner. MusicXML is my choice for export.
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miker
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Post by miker » Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:22 am

Mike,
IIRC, I had to give them my Finale serial number. I may have even had to wait a day or so, for verification.
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MikeHalloran
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Post by MikeHalloran » Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:15 am

miker wrote:Mike,
IIRC, I had to give them my Finale serial number. I may have even had to wait a day or so, for verification.
Perhaps. I remember doing that when I upgraded from SS Lite in 2010 or whenever I bought it—that was through the Musitek web site. I upgraded to X2 when it was released so that I could add lyrics.

I did go through the process till it asked me to confirm my purchase just now. It didn't ask for a serial number but I was logged into my MM user account. So, until someone who isn't a Finale user tries it through that link, we'll not know for certain.
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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:23 pm

MikeHalloran wrote:… I use Apple's Image Capture.app to scan—works with any scanner …
For What It Is Worth, you can also engage your scanner via Apple’s accessory application Preview.

File menu > Import from {name of scanner}…
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MikeHalloran
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Post by MikeHalloran » Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:25 pm

Peter Thomsen wrote:
MikeHalloran wrote:… I use Apple's Image Capture.app to scan—works with any scanner …
For What It Is Worth, you can also engage your scanner via Apple’s accessory application Preview.

File menu > Import from {name of scanner}…
Yes, it's exactly the same. You are calling up the same app as Image Capture. There are other ways to access it as well but Preview and Image Capture are the easiest way for most. I worked with Apple to get it fixed after they broke it in 10.6 and really screwed it up between OS 10.7–8.1.
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