English Horn in German

[David Ward]

OK, I'll correct myself here: Mahler wrote for "Tenorhorn" in his 7th Symphony. Strauss wrote for "Tenor Tuba" in "Heldenleben". So far as I know, they are one and the same instrument, and in the UK both pieces are normally performed on a euphonium. The British euphonium however is piston-valved, and not at all the same as the German equivalent, which is rotary valved.

I seem to remember that in some at least of the UK performances of Mahler 7 that I've encountered, the 'Tenorhorn' part has been played on a British brass band 'Baritone' (not quite the same as the US baritone, although related) rather than a Euphonium. This is probably also much the same instrument as the Italian 'flicorno tenore', which is built in B flat, but with a smaller bore than a Euphonium (at least of the UK variety).

[N Grossingink]

Here's a player who opts for a smaller horn on the Mahler. Is it a Baritone or the smaller Tenor Horn? Looks tiny. Sounds nice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUPrcjlt-bQ

By the way, here's some discussion that seems to indicate that Mahler considered using this instrument in his 6th symphony.
http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=42270.0

N.

[David Ward]

Here's a player who opts for a smaller horn on the Mahler. Is it a Baritone or the smaller Tenor Horn? Looks tiny. Sounds nice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUPrcjlt-bQ

Gareth can put me right if I'm wrong, but that instrument looks to me as though it might possibly be a Boosey & Hawkes 'Sovereign' or a more recent Besson baritone (UK nomenclature) which in the US is I think known as a tenor horn. The UK tenor horn is the smaller instrument built in E flat.

Band instrument nomenclature and type is a minefield and varies noticeably from country to country.

[Gareth Green]

Here's a player who opts for a smaller horn on the Mahler. Is it a Baritone or the smaller Tenor Horn? Looks tiny. Sounds nice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUPrcjlt-bQ

Gareth can put me right if I'm wrong, but that instrument looks to me as though it might possibly be a Boosey & Hawkes 'Sovereign' or a more recent Besson baritone (UK nomenclature) which in the US is I think known as a tenor horn. The UK tenor horn is the smaller instrument built in E flat.

Band instrument nomenclature and type is a minefield and varies noticeably from country to country.

It's very difficult to get a sense of scale, but going by the fingering, it's definitely in Bb, and certainly looks like a baritone. The bell size appears to me to be too small for a "Sovereign", and is more likely to be an "imperial", although it could also easily be an older model Yamaha instrument. Whatever it is, the sound the player is getting out of it is nothing at all like the sound a traditional brass band player would produce - far too strident and nowhere near broad or mellow enough. I'm unsure even how one might get that sort of sound unless the player were using a very small trombone mouthpiece.

[motet]

Are these instruments hard to play in tune? That Mahler 7th solo always sounds a little off to me.

[Gareth Green]

Are these instruments hard to play in tune? That Mahler 7th solo always sounds a little off to me.

Even here? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdxvC7NNSLQ

All brass instruments are hard to play in tune, and don't let the manufacturers' advertising copy persuade you otherwise. The laws of acoustical physics mean that the instrument can't possibly be in tune with itself, let alone with others. The manufacturing technology is really just a series of compromises that allow the instrument to be as close as possible to being approximately in tune, and the player, by means of good breathing/listening/embouchure technique has to do the rest. Making the instrument be in tune as close as possible to 100% of the time is one of the skills that separate the professionals from the majority of amateurs.

[motet]

All brass instruments are hard to play in tune...one of the skills that separate the professionals from the majority of amateurs.

Well, trumpets have the 1st and 3rd valve slides (for some notes), horns have the hand in the bell, and trombones can adjust except for first position. Does the baritone or euphonium have any way of adjusting other than "lipping"? The out-of-tune performances I'm talking about are commercial recordings.

[Gareth Green]

All brass instruments are hard to play in tune...one of the skills that separate the professionals from the majority of amateurs.

... Does the baritone or euphonium have any way of adjusting other than "lipping"?

Some modern "Besson" baritones have a 4th valve which aids intonation in the lower register and gives more options for alternative fingerings in the upper register which can make some notes easier to "lip". Some modern Euphoniums have a "trigger" fitted to the main tuning slide for fine adjustment "on the fly".

[N Grossingink]

[…and trombones can adjust except for first position.

Some trombones have a spring inside the slide at the first position. The true first position is with the spring uncompressed; pushing the slide in against the spring tension gives you a sharpened first position.

N.

[motet]

Very cool!

[ttw]

Not to worry too much. The mathematics of music show that no scale can be in tune with itself. No power of two is equal to a power of three. Actually, 8 and 9 are the only (non-degenerate) powers of integers but this was only proved in 2004. One cannot even design a consistent tuning system with two different overtones.