English Horn in German

[Anders Hedelin]

I'm wondering about how to write English Horn and its abbreviation properly in German. In my sources the instrument is called either Englischhorn or Englisch Horn. Now, I got a manuscript from a composer who, like me, is not German, and he calls it Englisches Horn. I haven't seen this except for in "englisches Horn" to explain an erroneous translation from the French 'cor anglé', angled horn. So what is the proper way(s) to name, and abbreviate, the instrument in German?

I'm sorry if this is not a true Finale question, but it concerns something you have to know when using the program, though.

[motet]

It's a fine question, and hopefully a German musician is reading here.

Apparently the "cor anglé" theory of etymology is in disfavor, and rather it's from the German "engellishes," meaning "angelic," which was similar to the word for "English" at the time. There is an interesting discussion here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cor_angla ... _etymology

[Anders Hedelin]

Thanks Motet for the enlightenment! Language IS a labyrinth.

[John Ruggero]

That does it. From now on I'm calling it the "Angelic Horn". "English Horn" has never made any sense, but then neither does "French Horn". But while that horn is also angelic, a good alternative already exists.

[David Ward]

The funny thing is that it's never called an ‘English Horn’ in England (nor indeed here in Scotland), but instead is always given the name ‘Cor Anglais’ perhaps because ‘English Horn’ in the UK and Ireland (or at least in rural parts) would suggest one of those short copper hunting horns.

[Michel R E]

isn't technically the "Horn in F" simply called a "horn", and not a "french horn"?
I've been told by many horn players here (albeit, in a french-speaking country) that one does not call it a "cor français" but rather simply "cor".

[motet]

I am a horn player and this is indeed correct (for F or any other key). The "French" seems to exist only in English and only as a layman's term; classical musicians and orchestra rosters (such as printed in a concert program) use simply "Horn." I will sometimes tell someone I play the French horn if they aren't classical-music literate. And in the jazz world "horns" can mean not only any brass instruments, but saxophones, too, so there's a distinction to be made there.

[John Ruggero]

"Horn" (or "Cor") was the alternative I as referring to. Anyone ever seen "French Horn" in a score? Maybe the popular use of "horn" for any wind instrument might explain why we continue to use the misnomer "French Horn."

Edit. Sorry Motet, our posts crossed.

[motet]

Anders, I looked at a few German scores. A Universal Edition of Mahler's 3rd has "Englischhorn," a Peters Tristan says "Englisch Horn," a Schott Das Rheingold says "Englisches Horn," and an Adolph Fürstner Rosenkavalier says "englisches Horn" (lower-case E). I guess I would use the -es inflection if I were writing it as two words.

[motet]

John: haven't seen "French" in a score, but maybe for a Broadway show, or a Gil Evans arrangement?

[Anders Hedelin]

Thanks again Motet! That makes it easier to go with the composer's Englisches Horn. He uses the abbreviation Engl. Hn. which perhaps looks better than Engl. Hr. (an English gentleman?) as in the Rheingold edition you mentioned - I actually had it on my bookshelf but didn't think of looking into that one!

[Peter S.]

I think that "Englisches Horn" is very oldfashioned and not in use anymore.
We in Vienna call it "Englischhorn" and often use the abbreviation "Eh."

Peter

[Knut]

I am a horn player and this is indeed correct (for F or any other key). The "French" seems to exist only in English and only as a layman's term; classical musicians and orchestra rosters (such as printed in a concert program) use simply "Horn." I will sometimes tell someone I play the French horn if they aren't classical-music literate. And in the jazz world "horns" can mean not only any brass instruments, but saxophones, too, so there's a distinction to be made there.

I would think that it would make sense for the French to simply call it 'Horn' (Cor), since it's origin would go without saying for them. It's not entirely correct though, that English is the only language using French Horn; in Norwegian it is sometimes used as a layman's term. And while professionals simply use the term 'Horn', I think the most technically correct name, at least in Norway, is the german Waldhorn (Valthorn).

Curiously, 'Horn' in Norwegian informal jazz terminology may refer to any instrument, beit brass, woodwind, bass, guitar or piano.

[Knut]

We in Vienna call it "Englischhorn" and often use the abbreviation "Eh."

How onomatopoetic!

[Anders Hedelin]

I think that "Englisches Horn" is very oldfashioned and not in use anymore.
We in Vienna call it "Englischhorn" and often use the abbreviation "Eh."

Thanks a lot Peter! It seems like we'll have to discuss that, my client and me.
Anders

[HaraldS]

We in Vienna call it "Englischhorn" and often use the abbreviation "Eh."

I can confirm that for Germany. See also https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Englischhorn

Harald

[motet]

...I think the most technically correct name, at least in Norway, is the german Waldhorn (Valthorn)...Curiously, 'Horn' in Norwegian informal jazz terminology may refer to any instrument, beit brass, woodwind, bass, guitar or piano.

I seem to recall the notion that since Brahms wrote "waldhorn" ("hunting horn") in some piece or other (Op 40 trio?) he explicitly wanted the natural horn, not the valve horn, which was beginning to come into its own in his day, but I don't know if that's true.

That's amusing about the jazz terminology. I could see that being the case in the U.S. as well, and have heard people referring to "blowing piano."

[Eh] How onomatopoetic!

Hah!

[John Ruggero]

I seem to recall the notion that since Brahms wrote "waldhorn" ("hunting horn") in some piece or other (Op 40 trio?) he explicitly wanted the natural horn, not the valve horn, which was beginning to come into its own in his day, but I don't know if that's true.

Brahms preferred the sound of the "waldhorn", the natural horn without valves and an instrument played by his father, to the "ventilhorn", the one with valves, and all of his horn parts are playable on the waldhorn and have been recorded that way.

http://www.historicbrass.org/Portals/0/ ... Scott5.pdf

Curiously, 'Horn' in Norwegian informal jazz terminology may refer to any instrument, beit brass, woodwind, bass, guitar or piano.

I used to hear "horn" refer to a wind or brass instrument here in the US, even among orchestral musicians. But things have probably changed. The term "ax" was used for all instruments as in, "Be sure to bring your ax; we'll read some Beethoven trios."

[motet]

Very interesting article, John--thanks!

[Anders Hedelin]

Thanks, Harald for confirming what Peter said! I find these replies very useful.

The article on Brahms and the horn I think shed some new light on one of my favourite composers - thanks John!

[Gareth Green]

One possible reason for the use of the term "French" horn here in the UK might be to distinguish it from the "tenor" horn, an instrument which is much more commonly used here in the UK than elsewhere because of the British Brass Band tradition. Tenor horns are also used by mounted military bands in the UK in place of the French or orchestral horn, because it can be played one-handed, and is therefore much easier to play on horseback. The players would switch to French horns for seated engagements.
(To complicate matters further, the tenor horn is referred to as an alto horn in the US, where the tenor horn is taken to mean what we would call a baritone ... )

[David Ward]

As far as I know (someone please put me right if I'm wrong) the term 'French horn' first arose because almost anything imported into England from continental Europe at a certain period was carelessly described as 'French.' This was at the time that what would eventually become the orchestral horn was first introduced into England from continental Europe. A little earlier, a rather grand lady in my family ancestry wrote in her diary complaining on her visit as a guest to a castle in Central Europe that the music was too loud and 'that they even had hunting horns' in the drawing room. The too loud instrument of which she was complaining was probably near enough identical to the instrument used by Bach in his B minor mass, which eventually developed into the modern orchestral horn.

Wagner has one pair of Waldhorns and one pair of Ventilhorns in both the Dutchman and Tannhäuser.

[motet]

(To complicate matters further, the tenor horn is referred to as an alto horn in the US, where the tenor horn is taken to mean what we would call a baritone ... )

"Tenor" seems more appropriate to its range. In the U.S. I've only seen a baritone called a baritone. "Tenorhorn" for that instrument is apparently German usage.

[Gareth Green]

(To complicate matters further, the tenor horn is referred to as an alto horn in the US, where the tenor horn is taken to mean what we would call a baritone ... )

"Tenor" seems more appropriate to its range. In the U.S. I've only seen a baritone called a baritone. "Tenorhorn" for that instrument is apparently German usage.

I don't ever recall seeing any reference to tenorhorn in german repertoire, only the tenor tuba, which we would call a euphonium.

[Gareth Green]

(To complicate matters further, the tenor horn is referred to as an alto horn in the US, where the tenor horn is taken to mean what we would call a baritone ... )

"Tenor" seems more appropriate to its range. In the U.S. I've only seen a baritone called a baritone. "Tenorhorn" for that instrument is apparently German usage.

I don't ever recall seeing any reference to tenorhorn in german repertoire, only the tenor tuba, which we would call a euphonium.

OK, I'll correct myself here: Mahler wrote for "Tenorhorn" in his 7th Symphony. Strauss wrote for "Tenor Tuba" in "Heldenleben". So far as I know, they are one and the same instrument, and in the UK both pieces are normally performed on a euphonium. The British euphonium however is piston-valved, and not at all the same as the German equivalent, which is rotary valved.