Notation question: grace note values
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- motet
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Leaving aside Mozart-style appoggiaturas, is there any difference between these two? The sixteenths seem slightly less cluttered to me. Any reason to prefer one over the other?
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- N Grossingink
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Elaine Gould says "commonly" 2 beams and "often" 3 beams, so she seems to be flexible. Furthermore, she says 2 grace notes are beamed with 2 beams, 3 or more (may be) with 3 beams, and four or more (may be) with 4 beams.
Personally I prefer your example with 2 beams.
N.
Personally I prefer your example with 2 beams.
N.
N. Grossingink
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- motet
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I have the book. I'll have to dig it out. Matching the number of beams to the number of grace notes seems rather arbitrary! I wonder what the reasoning for that is.N Grossingink wrote:Elaine Gould says "commonly" 2 beams and "often" 3 beams, so she seems to be flexible. Furthermore, she says 2 grace notes are beamed with 2 beams, 3 or more (may be) with 3 beams, and four or more (may be) with 4 beams.
- N Grossingink
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I can imagine using 4 beamed grace notes in a baroque piece, where the meter is subdivided so the eighth gets the beat and there are many shorter note values - 16ths, 32nds 64ths and such. However, my knowledge of baroque music is limited to playing trio sonatas arranged for trombone trio and the occasional bassoon or cello sonata, so don't take my word for it.motet wrote:I have the book. I'll have to dig it out. Matching the number of beams to the number of grace notes seems rather arbitrary! I wonder what the reasoning for that is.
N.
N. Grossingink
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Presumably, to ensure that the total duration of all grace notes is never greater than half the main note?motet wrote:Matching the number of beams to the number of grace notes seems rather arbitrary! I wonder what the reasoning for that is.
That is correct, but your initial question was about notation not performance, as far as I understand.motet wrote:Perhaps, though grace notes are usually played as fast as possible.
Here is my explanation:
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- John Ruggero
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OCTO. That is logical, and may be a tendency currently, but I don't think it is traditional. Checking through several composer's works, they use two or more beams for fast small notes and one or none for slow small notes, independent of the general tempo.
Mozart, for example, writes three beams for groups of two to four small fast notes in tempi from Adagio to Vivace. Ravel uses three beams for three notes and two beams for two in the finale of Daphnis in the percussion. Bartok uses two or three beams for fast groups in fast tempos. I could't find any examples of one beam for a fast group in a fast tempo.
Mozart, for example, writes three beams for groups of two to four small fast notes in tempi from Adagio to Vivace. Ravel uses three beams for three notes and two beams for two in the finale of Daphnis in the percussion. Bartok uses two or three beams for fast groups in fast tempos. I could't find any examples of one beam for a fast group in a fast tempo.
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"The better the composer, the better the notation."
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"The better the composer, the better the notation."
My impression of this is that you may use whatever value necessary to get the intended lenghth of the grace notes across within the given context. In other words, the main indicator for which value to use for grace notes is the value of surrounding notes, especially the main note that the grace notes lead to. To be sure that grace notes are executed as fast as possible, it's always best to add a slash; otherwise the value, along with the style and tempo will decide.
By this logic, OCTO's first example is not perfectly clear, while his second one is fine.
BTW, I can't remember having seen groups of grace notes drawn with a single beam in scores after 1800s, (except when slashed, of course).
By this logic, OCTO's first example is not perfectly clear, while his second one is fine.
BTW, I can't remember having seen groups of grace notes drawn with a single beam in scores after 1800s, (except when slashed, of course).
- John Ruggero
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They are plentiful in the music of Chopin:Knut wrote:I can't remember having seen groups of grace notes drawn with a single beam in scores after 1800s,
And you will also find single and groups of small quarter notes, as well.
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Thanks, John!
At least in this particular work, they seem to be a way to make sure that the grace notes are not to be played too fast, which seems to be a sensible way to implement them.
If my understanding is correct, I would modify my last post by saying that it would depend on the intended execution whether or not OCTO's first example is clear. Perhaps at that tempo, quarter note grace notes would be even more appropriate if you wanted a perfectly clear indication not to play them too fast.
At least in this particular work, they seem to be a way to make sure that the grace notes are not to be played too fast, which seems to be a sensible way to implement them.
If my understanding is correct, I would modify my last post by saying that it would depend on the intended execution whether or not OCTO's first example is clear. Perhaps at that tempo, quarter note grace notes would be even more appropriate if you wanted a perfectly clear indication not to play them too fast.
- John Ruggero
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You are welcome, Knut. The Chopin nocturnes are a "feast" of small notes of various denominations!Knut wrote:If my understanding is correct, I would modify my last post by saying that it would depend on the intended execution whether or not OCTO's first example is clear. Perhaps at that tempo, quarter note grace notes would be even more appropriate if you wanted a perfectly clear indication not to play them too fast.
I had assumed that OCTO was saying that the note values of small notes should be in proportion to the tempo, so that larger note values should be used for fast groups in fast tempos. Therefore his example was to show a way of notating fast groups in both fast and slow tempi, not how to notate a slower group in a fast tempo. This is logical, but doesn't seem to be what composer's of the past have actually done, probably because it is a complex system.
I wondered about your usage of the term "grace note" and understand now that you meant only fast small notes, and use the term "gruppetto" for slower ones. Many use the term "grace notes" for all small notes independent of speed.motet wrote:The Chopin example is more of a written-out gruppetto than grace notes. A single beam seem right.
To avoid confusion, I try to reserve "grace note" for a single slashed "crushed" notes (acciaccatura), and use the term "small notes" for all of the other unslashed fast or slow small notes, like the written-out turn in the Chopin. Or refer to the actual name of the ornament, if it has one, like the fast pre-beat turn in your example.
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That was my understanding as well. All I meant was that I didn't think eight notes convey that intention clearly, even at such a fast tempo. OTOH, as a more universal indication to limit the speed of multiple grace notes, I think it would work well.John Ruggero wrote:I had assumed that OCTO was saying that the note values of small notes should be in proportion to the tempo, so that larger note values should be used for fast groups in fast tempos. Therefore his example was to show a way of notating fast groups in both fast and slow tempi, not how to notate a slower group in a fast tempo. This is logical, but doesn't seem to be what composer's of the past have actually done, probably because it is a complex system.
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Yes, that is what it would do and is the convention now: the greater the note value the slower they are to be played independent of the tempo.Knut wrote:as a more universal indication to limit the speed of multiple grace notes, I think it would work well.
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"The better the composer, the better the notation."