Notation question: grace note values

General notation questions, including advanced notation, formatting, etc., go here.

Moderators: Peter Thomsen, miker

Post Reply
User avatar
motet
Posts: 8231
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
Operating System: Windows

Post by motet » Wed May 10, 2017 3:58 pm

Leaving aside Mozart-style appoggiaturas, is there any difference between these two? The sixteenths seem slightly less cluttered to me. Any reason to prefer one over the other?
Attachments
0185.png
0185.png (92.99 KiB) Viewed 12196 times


User avatar
N Grossingink
Posts: 1786
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:50 pm
Finale Version: 27.3
Operating System: Mac

Post by N Grossingink » Wed May 10, 2017 4:29 pm

Elaine Gould says "commonly" 2 beams and "often" 3 beams, so she seems to be flexible. Furthermore, she says 2 grace notes are beamed with 2 beams, 3 or more (may be) with 3 beams, and four or more (may be) with 4 beams.

Personally I prefer your example with 2 beams.

N.
N. Grossingink
Educational Band, Orchestra and Jazz Ensemble a specialty
Sample: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pFF5OeJDeLFGHMRyXrubFqZWXBubErw4/view?usp=share_link


Mac Mini 2014 2.6 Ghz, 8Gb RAM
OSX 10.15.7
Finale 2012c, 25.5, 26.3, 27.3

User avatar
motet
Posts: 8231
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
Operating System: Windows

Post by motet » Wed May 10, 2017 4:44 pm

N Grossingink wrote:Elaine Gould says "commonly" 2 beams and "often" 3 beams, so she seems to be flexible. Furthermore, she says 2 grace notes are beamed with 2 beams, 3 or more (may be) with 3 beams, and four or more (may be) with 4 beams.
I have the book. I'll have to dig it out. Matching the number of beams to the number of grace notes seems rather arbitrary! I wonder what the reasoning for that is.

User avatar
N Grossingink
Posts: 1786
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:50 pm
Finale Version: 27.3
Operating System: Mac

Post by N Grossingink » Wed May 10, 2017 5:06 pm

motet wrote:I have the book. I'll have to dig it out. Matching the number of beams to the number of grace notes seems rather arbitrary! I wonder what the reasoning for that is.
I can imagine using 4 beamed grace notes in a baroque piece, where the meter is subdivided so the eighth gets the beat and there are many shorter note values - 16ths, 32nds 64ths and such. However, my knowledge of baroque music is limited to playing trio sonatas arranged for trombone trio and the occasional bassoon or cello sonata, so don't take my word for it.

N.
N. Grossingink
Educational Band, Orchestra and Jazz Ensemble a specialty
Sample: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pFF5OeJDeLFGHMRyXrubFqZWXBubErw4/view?usp=share_link


Mac Mini 2014 2.6 Ghz, 8Gb RAM
OSX 10.15.7
Finale 2012c, 25.5, 26.3, 27.3

User avatar
motet
Posts: 8231
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
Operating System: Windows

Post by motet » Wed May 10, 2017 5:22 pm

Gould says "two beams are recommended as they give a less cluttered appearance." I agree, so I guess I'll go with that.

BuonTempi
Posts: 1297
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:59 am
Finale Version: Finale 27
Operating System: Mac

Post by BuonTempi » Wed May 10, 2017 5:29 pm

motet wrote:Matching the number of beams to the number of grace notes seems rather arbitrary! I wonder what the reasoning for that is.
Presumably, to ensure that the total duration of all grace notes is never greater than half the main note?

User avatar
motet
Posts: 8231
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
Operating System: Windows

Post by motet » Wed May 10, 2017 5:38 pm

I'm not sure I follow the logic of such insurance.

User avatar
OCTO
Posts: 293
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:43 am
Finale Version: 25
Operating System: Mac

Post by OCTO » Wed May 10, 2017 6:02 pm

Perhaps tempo is the main judge here.
www.notat.io - A Forum devoted to the Practice of Music Notation

User avatar
motet
Posts: 8231
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
Operating System: Windows

Post by motet » Wed May 10, 2017 6:15 pm

Perhaps, though grace notes are usually played as fast as possible. It seems like if that's not wanted, they should be metered.

RMK
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:24 pm
Finale Version: 25.2
Operating System: Windows

Post by RMK » Thu May 11, 2017 12:21 pm

I generally use two beams for groups up to three notes and three beams for groups of four or more.

User avatar
OCTO
Posts: 293
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:43 am
Finale Version: 25
Operating System: Mac

Post by OCTO » Thu May 11, 2017 6:56 pm

motet wrote:Perhaps, though grace notes are usually played as fast as possible.
That is correct, but your initial question was about notation not performance, as far as I understand.
Here is my explanation:
shot 1.png
shot 1.png (23.69 KiB) Viewed 12097 times
www.notat.io - A Forum devoted to the Practice of Music Notation

User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 827
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:41 am
Finale Version: Finale 25.5
Operating System: Mac

Post by John Ruggero » Fri May 12, 2017 11:15 am

OCTO. That is logical, and may be a tendency currently, but I don't think it is traditional. Checking through several composer's works, they use two or more beams for fast small notes and one or none for slow small notes, independent of the general tempo.

Mozart, for example, writes three beams for groups of two to four small fast notes in tempi from Adagio to Vivace. Ravel uses three beams for three notes and two beams for two in the finale of Daphnis in the percussion. Bartok uses two or three beams for fast groups in fast tempos. I could't find any examples of one beam for a fast group in a fast tempo.
2020 M1 Mac mini (OS 12.6) Finale 25.5, Dorico, Affinity Publisher, SmartScore 64 Pro, JW Plug-ins, TG Tools, Keyboard Maestro
www.cantilenapress.com

"The better the composer, the better the notation."

Knut
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:33 pm
Finale Version: Finale 25
Operating System: Mac

Post by Knut » Fri May 12, 2017 12:28 pm

My impression of this is that you may use whatever value necessary to get the intended lenghth of the grace notes across within the given context. In other words, the main indicator for which value to use for grace notes is the value of surrounding notes, especially the main note that the grace notes lead to. To be sure that grace notes are executed as fast as possible, it's always best to add a slash; otherwise the value, along with the style and tempo will decide.

By this logic, OCTO's first example is not perfectly clear, while his second one is fine.

BTW, I can't remember having seen groups of grace notes drawn with a single beam in scores after 1800s, (except when slashed, of course).

User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 827
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:41 am
Finale Version: Finale 25.5
Operating System: Mac

Post by John Ruggero » Fri May 12, 2017 7:17 pm

Knut wrote:I can't remember having seen groups of grace notes drawn with a single beam in scores after 1800s,
They are plentiful in the music of Chopin:
Chopin op 62 no 1 small 8ths.jpg
Chopin op 62 no 1 small 8ths.jpg (16.86 KiB) Viewed 12050 times
And you will also find single and groups of small quarter notes, as well.
2020 M1 Mac mini (OS 12.6) Finale 25.5, Dorico, Affinity Publisher, SmartScore 64 Pro, JW Plug-ins, TG Tools, Keyboard Maestro
www.cantilenapress.com

"The better the composer, the better the notation."

Knut
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:33 pm
Finale Version: Finale 25
Operating System: Mac

Post by Knut » Fri May 12, 2017 7:41 pm

Thanks, John!

At least in this particular work, they seem to be a way to make sure that the grace notes are not to be played too fast, which seems to be a sensible way to implement them.

If my understanding is correct, I would modify my last post by saying that it would depend on the intended execution whether or not OCTO's first example is clear. Perhaps at that tempo, quarter note grace notes would be even more appropriate if you wanted a perfectly clear indication not to play them too fast.

User avatar
motet
Posts: 8231
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
Operating System: Windows

Post by motet » Fri May 12, 2017 8:07 pm

The Chopin example is more of a written-out gruppetto than grace notes. A single beam seem right.

User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 827
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:41 am
Finale Version: Finale 25.5
Operating System: Mac

Post by John Ruggero » Sat May 13, 2017 2:54 am

Knut wrote:If my understanding is correct, I would modify my last post by saying that it would depend on the intended execution whether or not OCTO's first example is clear. Perhaps at that tempo, quarter note grace notes would be even more appropriate if you wanted a perfectly clear indication not to play them too fast.
You are welcome, Knut. The Chopin nocturnes are a "feast" of small notes of various denominations!

I had assumed that OCTO was saying that the note values of small notes should be in proportion to the tempo, so that larger note values should be used for fast groups in fast tempos. Therefore his example was to show a way of notating fast groups in both fast and slow tempi, not how to notate a slower group in a fast tempo. This is logical, but doesn't seem to be what composer's of the past have actually done, probably because it is a complex system.
motet wrote:The Chopin example is more of a written-out gruppetto than grace notes. A single beam seem right.
I wondered about your usage of the term "grace note" and understand now that you meant only fast small notes, and use the term "gruppetto" for slower ones. Many use the term "grace notes" for all small notes independent of speed.

To avoid confusion, I try to reserve "grace note" for a single slashed "crushed" notes (acciaccatura), and use the term "small notes" for all of the other unslashed fast or slow small notes, like the written-out turn in the Chopin. Or refer to the actual name of the ornament, if it has one, like the fast pre-beat turn in your example.
2020 M1 Mac mini (OS 12.6) Finale 25.5, Dorico, Affinity Publisher, SmartScore 64 Pro, JW Plug-ins, TG Tools, Keyboard Maestro
www.cantilenapress.com

"The better the composer, the better the notation."

Knut
Posts: 56
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:33 pm
Finale Version: Finale 25
Operating System: Mac

Post by Knut » Sat May 13, 2017 8:32 am

John Ruggero wrote:I had assumed that OCTO was saying that the note values of small notes should be in proportion to the tempo, so that larger note values should be used for fast groups in fast tempos. Therefore his example was to show a way of notating fast groups in both fast and slow tempi, not how to notate a slower group in a fast tempo. This is logical, but doesn't seem to be what composer's of the past have actually done, probably because it is a complex system.
That was my understanding as well. All I meant was that I didn't think eight notes convey that intention clearly, even at such a fast tempo. OTOH, as a more universal indication to limit the speed of multiple grace notes, I think it would work well.

User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 827
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:41 am
Finale Version: Finale 25.5
Operating System: Mac

Post by John Ruggero » Sat May 13, 2017 12:04 pm

Knut wrote:as a more universal indication to limit the speed of multiple grace notes, I think it would work well.
Yes, that is what it would do and is the convention now: the greater the note value the slower they are to be played independent of the tempo.
2020 M1 Mac mini (OS 12.6) Finale 25.5, Dorico, Affinity Publisher, SmartScore 64 Pro, JW Plug-ins, TG Tools, Keyboard Maestro
www.cantilenapress.com

"The better the composer, the better the notation."

User avatar
motet
Posts: 8231
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
Operating System: Windows

Post by motet » Sat May 13, 2017 3:11 pm

.
Attachments
0187.png
0187.png (96.37 KiB) Viewed 11978 times

Post Reply