Font garbage mystery

[guitarsean]

I have in the images attached two titles for a client's song. Same font, one file extracted from the other. Originally created in Finale 2012, I'm converting to F25. One looks fine, the other is gobbledygook. I did try to copy/paste the title from the good one, and that did fix it, but I'd like to know why this happened at all. Gremlins?

[MikeHalloran]

You need to know what that font is and have it properly installed in your system.

[guitarsean]

You need to know what that font is and have it properly installed in your system.

I do have it properly installed. One Finale file worked fine, the other didn't. I don't think I was clear enough that these are two files (both mine), not one file - my version and someone else's. And as I said, a copy/paste fixed it. I'm just curious as to why two essentially identical files wouldn't both just work. The final Finale 2012 version were alse created by me, and they both still look fine in 2012. And I'm pretty sure the garbage characters are not the standard substitute look for a missing font.

[guitarsean]

One more note, after further checking the original files were created in Finale 2010. Still doesn't explain anything to me, other that Finale has always had weird random gremlins.

[motet]

Maybe look at the font setting in Document options/Fonts/Text/Text block. It shouldn't happen that extracting changes text, but if that's set to the Chinese font, perhaps it's reapply that setting when extracting. Just stabbing in the dark here. Finale has always had font issues on the Mac.

[BuonTempi]

Finale 2012 was capable of using Unicode in text blocks (to some extent). Finale 2010 wasn't.

One text box is clearly displaying completely different characters. If the font doesn't have those characters, then they may be represented by a system font that does. It's possible that somehow the text got represented in a different encoding.

But I doubt you'll get an explanation of what happened without more detailed analysis of the document: yes, it's probably just a gremlin. You've fixed it. If it happens again, or very time you share documents with someone else, then that's worth looking into.

[MikeHalloran]

One more note, after further checking the original files were created in Finale 2010. Still doesn't explain anything to me,

2010 is important, actually.

First, see if there's a version of whatever font that is created/updated in 2012 or later. If so, purge the installed version from Font Book.app, empty Trash and install it.

If not, make sure you have a copy of that font somewhere, do the same then reinstall the old font.

If you still have fonts installed in Users/(user)/Library/Fonts it's a good idea to clear them all out of Font Book and reinstall. This should put them in Library/Fonts where they belong.

If you kept current with the Mac OS, you should find that the newest ones in Users/(user)/Library/Fonts date to 2010. Fonts should install in Library/Fonts these days.

Just now, I checked my Users/(user)/Library/Fonts directory and found about 40 old font libraries that I rarely use plus TurboTax fonts dating to 2003. Ok... I created a folder on my desktop, dragged them all over—this removed them from Font Book. I then reinstalled from the temp folder on my desktop (doing it this way installs a copy into the correct directory—these are untouched). All went into the correct directory and are available in Word etc.

[guitarsean]

But why would two files using the exact same font have different results?

[MikeHalloran]

But why would two files using the exact same font have different results?

Because the font is not installed correctly. There are other reasons but that is the most common. Fonts work (or don't) the way that Apple wants nowadays. This has changed over the years but not since 2012.

If deleting and reinstalling correctly fixes the issue, declare victory and move on. If not, you will need a version of the font that is compliant with the Apple Developers' Toolkit. Most homebrewed aren't and that doesn't keep them from working just fine on a Mac.

BTW, if you get file errors on installing, it's not an issue usually. Apple will throw up cautions when a font does not have a complete set of upper/lower/numerical — this includes all notation and symbol fonts and thousands of homebrewed. Just check the boxes and continue.

[motet]

Sean, did you see this?

Maybe look at the font setting in Document options/Fonts/Text/Text block. It shouldn't happen that extracting changes text, but if that's set to the Chinese font, perhaps it's reapply that setting when extracting. Just stabbing in the dark here. Finale has always had font issues on the Mac.

[guitarsean]

Sean, did you see this?

Maybe look at the font setting in Document options/Fonts/Text/Text block. It shouldn't happen that extracting changes text, but if that's set to the Chinese font, perhaps it's reapply that setting when extracting. Just stabbing in the dark here. Finale has always had font issues on the Mac.

Yeah, didn't make a difference, and it wasn't set to a Chinese font, either. The part was already a separate file, sorry if that was unclear. I didn't extract and then get the problem. I've now had the problem occur with other files and it seems like Finale is using the wrong default "missing font" display when opening older files. However, changing the font does nothing, so it isn't just the font for the song in my original post. I can't change the Chinese characters to any other font at all. The only fix is to copy and paste from another file, then things are fine.

[MikeHalloran]

it wasn't set to a Chinese font, either. The part was already a separate file, sorry if that was unclear. I didn't extract and then get the problem. I've now had the problem occur with other files and it seems like Finale is using the wrong default "missing font" display when opening older files. However, changing the font does nothing, so it isn't just the font for the song in my original post. I can't change the Chinese characters to any other font at all. The only fix is to copy and paste from another file, then things are fine.

All of that was quite clear before I made my suggestion. You questioned it but did you try it?

[guitarsean]

All of that was quite clear before I made my suggestion. You questioned it but did you try it?

I tried it. It didn't work. Some other bug is at work. Once the Chinese characters appear, I can't even change them to Arial or Helvetica or any other font of any kind. They are "stuck" for whatever reason. The only fix is to create a new text box, or paste text from another file that is working. I'm not loosing sleep over it, I just think it would be nice if Finale didn't have gremlins someday.

[MikeHalloran]

PM sent

[BuonTempi]

If you still have fonts installed in Users/(user)/Library/Fonts it's a good idea to clear them all out of Font Book and reinstall. This should put them in Library/Fonts where they belong.
If you kept current with the Mac OS, you should find that the newest ones in Users/(user)/Library/Fonts date to 2010. Fonts should install in Library/Fonts these days.

According to Apple's documentation, Font Book still installs fonts to the User font folder by default, unless you change the preference. Why is it a good idea to clear them out?
https://support.apple.com/HT201749

[David Ward]

It does look as though that Apple support article about FontBook has not been up-dated since OS 10.6, but then perhaps it hasn't needed to be.

I know almost nothing about this subject, but the Mac expert with whom I consult (and he really IS an expert) does indeed suggest that fonts should normally all be installed to ‘Computer’ rather than to ‘User’. I suppose there might in theory be some reason (but what could that possibly be?) to keep other log-in users away from selected user-installed fonts, but otherwise…

I do know that in the past I had some passing problem that arose from my having both ‘User’ and ‘Computer’ versions of ostensibly the *same* font, but that was definitely not a good idea.

[BuonTempi]

The publication date at the bottom is March 2016.

Obviously, applications like Finale install their fonts in /Library folder, and have always done so. And that makes sense as any users on the Mac will have access to the fonts.

But most Mac users have one user account, and the OS can read fonts from the user font folder and the root level Library. So while there are advantages (to all users) of installing to /Library, I can't see (but would be interested to know) what the disadvantage is (for that user) of installing them in ~/Library.

[N Grossingink]

I've been organizing my fonts in the same manner since not too long after I moved to Mac OSX, some 12 years ago. In my user font folder, I install only the music and text fonts that I use for my engraving work. In the Hard Drive level I put everything else. This system has always worked without a hitch, on 3 different computers and on several different OSX versions.

N.