How can we stop bar lines from shifting?

[Djard]

I'm working an a score wherein the timing alternates between 4/4 and 2/4. In Document Options, I see no setting for such purpose in the "Barlines" section. In "Music Spacing," from the "Manual Positioning" drop-down menu, I selected "Incorporate." But the space between the bar lines keeps changing during editing. Is there a way to keep the bar lines fixed in place?

[miker]

Try turning off "automatic music spacing" in preferences>edit.

[Djard]

Thank you. That seems to have done the trick.

[N Grossingink]

You might also try a setting in the Music Spacing Options called "Minimum Measure Width". If you try 1 inch or 1.25 inch, the net effect will be to widen the 2/4 bars, if that's what you want. This setting is "sticky", not affected by music spacing.

N.

[BuonTempi]

I'm working an a score wherein the timing alternates between 4/4 and 2/4. In Document Options, I see no setting for such purpose in the "Barlines" section. In "Music Spacing," from the "Manual Positioning" drop-down menu, I selected "Incorporate." But the space between the bar lines keeps changing during editing. Is there a way to keep the bar lines fixed in place?

Could we see a picture of what you're trying to achieve? Surely, the width of a measure is expected to vary, depending on the note values it contains?

[Djard]

Thanks for all the help.

Attached is a pic of what I currently have. The barlines are where I want them, after I manually moved them. During a copy and paste edit, some of the staff systems had a long 4/4 (space for 5 beats) at the expense of the 2/4 that was truncated to a one beat space, and a 4/4 that was OK. But I can now copy and paste staves without the barlines shifting about by 1/2 inch or so on my screen.

BTW, is there a way to manually set all the 4/4 measures to twice the width of the 2/4? I may be asking for too much, since Finale would need to consider the courtesy time signatures that I wish to keep.

[Peter Thomsen]

… is there a way to manually set all the 4/4 measures to twice the width of the 2/4? I may be asking for too much, since Finale would need to consider the courtesy time signatures that I wish to keep.

It is not clear to me how you define “measure width”.

In “Finale-speak” the width of a measure is the width of the stretch that contains music, i. e. the width without clef, key signature and time signature.
* Is that how you define “measure width”?
To see the {“Finale-speak” width} of a measure, switch to Measure Tool, and double-click the measure.

However, you could also define the width of a measure as the distance between the barlines, i. e. the width including clef, key signature and time signature.
* Is that how you define “measure width”?

Could you perhaps explain why you would “set all the 4/4 measures to twice the width of the 2/4”?
The better we understand, the better we can help.

[BuonTempi]

BTW, is there a way to manually set all the 4/4 measures to twice the width of the 2/4? I may be asking for too much, since Finale would need to consider the courtesy time signatures that I wish to keep.

Why is it important to you that these measures have specific widths?

You could try setting the Music Scaling Factor to 1, and then Apply Beat Spacing. It doesn't look great, but it's close to what you want.

[Djard]

For some reason the music looks aesthetically more pleasing to my eye and easier to read when the 2/4 measures are a little larger than two beats, relative to the 4/4. In the three bar staff system in the file I uploaded, consisting of space for 10 beats (4/4, 2/4, 4/4), the 2/4 is manually set to be wider than half of a 4/4 measure. If I make the 2/4 half the width of a 4/4, it looks squeezed.

[BuonTempi]

Measures are not usually spaced by beat, but by the notes they contain. A 2/4 bar filled with sixteenth notes will be longer than a 3/2 bar with one note. Finale does Note Spacing by default, but it can do Beat Spacing (CTRL 5).
As you may know, for Note Spacing, Finale takes the reference distance (from Doc Opts > Music Spacing > Spacing Widths), and gives that amount of space after the reference note value. All other note values have a space calculated from the Scaling Factor. So a half note has 1.6 times the space as a quarter note.
Combined with the extras for clefs, key and time sigs, you get a total length for the measures in a system. Finale then has to squeeze or stretch that to fit it into the system width.

With Finale's standard spacing, your 2/4 measures all contain the same note values, and thus they all have a reference width of 90 pt. Your 4/4 measures are all similar, with some slight variation that alters their widths between 119 and 135 pt. So the 2/4 measures are already much wider than half a 4/4 measure.

Your document, as supplied, has smaller 2/4 bars than Finale would automatically give them after Applying Note Spacing. But you now seem to say that you want the 2/4 bars larger.

I would suggest that you use Beat Spacing and play with Music Spacing parameters, rather than doing it manually. Manually spacing every measure is a Sisyphean task that is easily destroyed by Finale's desire to space the music as outlined above.

[Peter Thomsen]

… In the three bar staff system in the file I uploaded, consisting of space for 10 beats (4/4, 2/4, 4/4), the 2/4 is manually set to be wider than half of a 4/4 measure. If I make the 2/4 half the width of a 4/4, it looks squeezed.

Which brings me back to my previous question:
What do you mean by Measure Width?
- the “Finale-speak” definition where the Measure Width is the width of the area with music in it (= excluding clef, key signature, and time signature)?
- the distance between the barlines?

You tell that “the 2/4 is manually set to be wider than half of a 4/4 measure”.
I am not sure which system you are talking about?
The time signature sequence {4/4 - 2/4 - 4/4} occurs in the systems 1, 3, and 5.

[N Grossingink]

I took your file and changed the Music Spacing Option "Minimum Measure Width" to .95 inch. This setting seems allow 2 eighth notes in the 2/4 measures to be spaced the same as 2 eighths in the surrounding 4/4 measures, while still giving the 2/4 measure a generous width. File attached.

N.

[Djard]

Since working with alternating timing, I ran into the problem of bar lines shifting whenever copying and pasting measures of notation, after which I started fiddling with measure width, which I viewed as the amount of space for notation between two bars, excluding the key and courtesy time signatures. I used screen calipers to set the spacing, making the 2/4 measures about 25% longer than half the length of the 4/4 measures as that seemed more balanced. As correctly pointed out, this approach to my problem was sisyphean.

I figured out the cause and realize what I was doing is unnecessary. Because I used three measures per staff system for the alternating timing, the staffs also alternated between [A] 2/4 + 4/4 + 2/4 (8/4) and 4/4, 2/4, 4/4 (10/4). So when I copied and pasted a 4/4 measure from an [A] staff into a , the bar line squeezed the 2/4 in that staff. I was pasting a longer 4/4 into a shorter one.

If I copy a 4/4 measure from, say, an [A] staff and paste it into another [A] staff elsewhere, the bar line does not shift.

Sorry for the confusion.

[Djard]

Peter, what I mean by measure width is the relative space for beats between the time signature and bar line...relative because one staff accommodates 8 beats and the alternate one 10 beats. So 2/4 in one stave will properly be longer than its counterpart in the next stave, given the amount of notation is the same. In my upload, I manually spaced the 2/4 bars a little further apart than half of the width of the 4/4. Sorry if I am not being clear. It's the best I can do.

Grossingink: your approach seems to be the most expedient method to avoid the 2/4 measures from appearing squeezed. You have saved me much time and eye strain. Thanks.

[Peter Thomsen]

Peter, what I mean by measure width is the relative space for beats between the time signature and bar line...relative because one staff accommodates 8 beats and the alternate one 10 beats. So 2/4 in one stave will properly be longer than its counterpart in the next stave, given the amount of notation is the same. In my upload, I manually spaced the 2/4 bars a little further apart than half of the width of the 4/4 …

Thanks for the info.

If I understand you correctly, your definition of {measure width} is the “Finale-speak” definition.
Indeed the measure width is relative since it is relative to the other measures in the same system.

You can see a measure’s “Finale-speak” {measure width} with the Measure Tool.
Just double-click the measure to open the Measure Attributes.

Finale will display the measure width value in the Measurement Units that are selected in the sub-menu Measurement Units.

The default Measurement Units are Inches.
But for layout work it is more convenient to use small Measurement Units, like Points or EVPUs.

[Djard]

Peter, I have much respect for your expertise concerning Finale, also for your knowledge in music; so I am curious how you might define measure width.

I have always thought the width of a measure is determined by the amount of notation in it, and I am aware that the better publishers add space before a whole note on the first beat, when it is the only note or chord in the measure that is truncated, allowing more room for neighboring measures with busy notation. Would you not say the width of a measure us the distance between two bar lines? I am always ready to learn from others.

[Peter Thomsen]

In “Finale-speak” the {measure width} (which you can find in the Measure Attributes) includes only the area with notes and rests
in it.

In Other Words:
Clef, key signature and time signature are not included in the measure width.

Where a clef or a key signature or a time signature is displaying between the barlines, the {measure width} value is less than the distance between the barlines.

Via the Measure Attributes you can (manually) set a measure’s {width value} to zero.
When you click OK in the Measure Attributes, to return to the score, you will see that the distance between the barlines is zero
only where there are neither clef nor key signature nor time signature between the barlines.

[Djard]

That makes good sense to me. Thanks for the very clear explanation.