Courtesy enharmonic

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Hector Pascal
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Post by Hector Pascal » Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:10 am

Hi all,
I have a choir piece, the alto part of which has a repeated note that stays at the same pitch, however the key changes "around it" so that the altos sing an Ab which then becomes a G# and then back to an Ab.

Question: When it becomes a G#, should I put a little Ab in parenthesis above the G# as a courtesy? Are there other ways of doing it?

Cheers,
HP.


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miker
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Post by miker » Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:32 am

Yes, I would. In barbershop, we spell it out: G# = Ab, or Ab = G#, depending on which way it's going.
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MikeHalloran
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Post by MikeHalloran » Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:39 am

Normally, a courtesy accidental is used to eliminate confusion. For example, you sharp a note but one measure later, the note comes back as natural as indicated by the key sig. A courtesy accidental may be called for. Even though it's subjective, most will put one in.

Without seeing an example, it's hard to tell if this is one of those times.

It can be really annoying to put one in every time it's called for, especially if several measures have passed.
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Post by miker » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:57 am

He's asking about an enharmonic, not an accidental.
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Post by MikeHalloran » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:19 pm

miker wrote:He's asking about an enharmonic, not an accidental.
It looks to me like talking about a courtesy accidental to note an enharmonic. As I posted earlier, without seeing what he's doing, it's not clear at all.
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Post by motet » Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:42 pm

I've seen, for example, G# and Ab tied together at such a change.

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Post by miker » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:28 pm

Here is a courtesy accidental. The first measure has the baritone singing a B natural. In the second, he goes back to the Bb in the key signature, so it is indicated by the flat in parentheses. Yes, it's not strictly necessary, since we all know that the barline cancels the previous accidental. That's why it's called a "courtesy."
Screen Shot 2017-07-20 at 12.16.28 PM.png
Screen Shot 2017-07-20 at 12.16.28 PM.png (22.03 KiB) Viewed 16675 times
Here, the notes have been changed to their enharmonic equivalent. The key signature has nothing to do with it.
Screen Shot 2017-07-20 at 12.19.35 PM.png
Screen Shot 2017-07-20 at 12.19.35 PM.png (61.3 KiB) Viewed 16675 times
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Post by zuill » Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:29 am

I make it a habit not to do this, as this should be a part of the training of the musician reading the music. If the individual needs to make there own pencil note in the music, that's okay. But if this needs to be done for all the musicians in the ensemble, it makes me wonder about their fundamental understanding of the mechanics of reading music. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the need for the indication. I've never seen this (at least I don't recall it) in my years of conducting and accompanying choral music.

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Post by gary-duane » Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:15 am

zuill wrote:I make it a habit not to do this, as this should be a part of the training of the musician reading the music. If the individual needs to make there own pencil note in the music, that's okay. But if this needs to be done for all the musicians in the ensemble, it makes me wonder about their fundamental understanding of the mechanics of reading music. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the need for the indication. I've never seen this (at least I don't recall it) in my years of conducting and accompanying choral music.

Zuill
In piano music courtesy accidental are so standard that it is shocking not to see them. Any time there has been any note in a the last measure that was not part of the current key signature, expect to see that note shown with an accidental in the following measure. In other words, my better students will notice when I leave one out. This has been true for at least a couple hundred years.

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Post by BuonTempi » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:49 am

I've seen something like the following for enharmonic changes, which is quite helpful. (Made here as a quick expression.)
It's easier to read than the text instruction.
Screen Shot 11.png
Screen Shot 11.png (17.73 KiB) Viewed 16594 times
Anyone likely to misunderstand will make their own pencil marking after getting it wrong the first time.

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Post by John Ruggero » Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:57 pm

gary-duane wrote:In piano music courtesy accidental are so standard that it is shocking not to see them. Any time there has been any note in a the last measure that was not part of the current key signature, expect to see that note shown with an accidental in the following measure. In other words, my better students will notice when I leave one out. This has been true for at least a couple hundred years.
To be more precise (which it is always fun to be) precautionary accidentals have been inserted so religiously in piano music for about 150 years, not 200.

Here is the first German edition (the French is the same) of Chopin's Etude op. 10 no. 10. Note that absence of most precautionary accidentals in the second measure. Modern editions put them all in. Chopin was not opposed to precautionary accidentals, but only used them where there was a real danger of misunderstanding by an intelligent player, since they clutter up the score and he always kept the notation as clean as possible. As the mass market increased, composers started to put in all kinds of extraneous markings in self-defense. And the editors, not willing (or able?) to decide where precautionary accidentals were really necessary, found it easier to put them all in.
Accidentals.jpg
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Last edited by John Ruggero on Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by zuill » Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:35 pm

I think I may have ben misunderstood. I am all for courtesy accidentals, despite the fact that the rule regarding the barline cancelling accidentals is taught early, and is easily understood. In sight reading, especially when there are lots of notes, courtesy accidentals are quite helpful, in my experience. I have no issue with that.

My objection was about courtesy enharmonics. That is something that I feel is usually quite unnecessary.

So, courtesy accidentals: fine. Courtesy enharmonics: not really necessary.

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Post by John Ruggero » Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:12 pm

I would agree with zuill about the courtesy enharmonics. I've never seen them in such a case (Beethoven Sonata op 110):
Beethoven enharmonics.jpg
Beethoven enharmonics.jpg (35.88 KiB) Viewed 16572 times
Motet mentioned enharmonics tied together. That is often used where appropriate (Chopin Ballade no 3):
Enharmonic ties.jpg
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Post by motet » Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:36 pm

I guess I'm with Zuill on this. What is the courtesy enharmonic designed to prevent? Unlike a courtesy accidental, there's no danger of playing a wrong note. Besides being clutter, there's the danger of of distraction or confusion until the performer figures out what it means, at which point it's no longer necessary.

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Post by miker » Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:57 pm

And, as someone who has worked with very amateur choirs, I respectfully disagree with you.

Yes, you can tell them "it's the same note" but the chances are good that they will still sing up or down when they get there the next time. Especially the ones who proudly say, "I don't read music, but I have a very good ear..."

Well, they're half right...
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Post by motet » Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:58 pm

Point taken. In an orchestra, though, I guarantee it would result in wasted rehearsal time discussing it.

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Post by gary-duane » Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:26 am

John Ruggero wrote: To be more precise (which it is always fun to be) precautionary accidentals have been inserted so religiously in piano music for about 150 years, not 200.
Well, you caught me being pretty sloppy. I was afraid someone would jump on that. :)
Here is the first German edition (the French is the same) of Chopin's Etude op. 10 no. 10. Note that absence of most precautionary accidentals in the second measure. Modern editions put them all in. Chopin was not opposed to precautionary accidentals, but only used them where there was a real danger of misunderstanding by an intelligent player, since they clutter up the score and he always kept the notation as clean as possible. As the mass market increased, composers started to put in all kinds of extraneous markings in self-defense. And the editors, not willing (or able?) to decide where precautionary accidentals were really necessary, found it easier to put them all in.
I think the point you are making is that over time things started to get "dumbed down", and that's something I have talked about with students for decades.

There is a gradual flip from the "just the notes please" style of guys like JS Bach to the micromanaging of everything by the end of the 1800s and moving into the 1900s. Over time composers started to attempt to be more and more specific about what they wanted. But I think there is a cost to this. I can't view your picture while typing, but the example you gave seems crystal clear to me and is about what I would do myself. I am also opposed to putting in extra, unnecessary info, and that also includes too much fingering, too many phrase marks, and so on. In the end what is on the page is meant to be intuitive prompting, and with things like the Chopin Etudes there is such a long history of interpretive assumptions that it is really hard to find anyone radically deviating from what everyone else does.

Off the top of my head, without look again, I think Chopin only put an extra Eb in the next measure and then pretty much assumes anyone with half a brain knows that that measure is diatonic and entirely within the key.

Because I do so much notating for my students I will often experiment with adding or leaving out standard marks just to see what will happen upon first reading (students), and the result often surprises me.

The reason Finale has been such big part of my life for over 20 years is that it allows us to make all sorts of decisions that are instantly changeable. I'll do almost anything under the sun with standard literature re changing things, always then comparing with a standard edition.

My students often say, "Why did composer A make that choice here?"

My answer: "Because when you write by hand, it takes so long to get things written out in a form that pleases you, and you aren't going to rewrite the whole thing just because you have a better idea. But today we can do that, almost instantly. You aren't dependent upon someone else to take your chicken-scratch and turn it into something presentable to the public."

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Post by gary-duane » Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:28 am

zuill wrote:I think I may have ben misunderstood. I am all for courtesy accidentals, despite the fact that the rule regarding the barline cancelling accidentals is taught early, and is easily understood. In sight reading, especially when there are lots of notes, courtesy accidentals are quite helpful, in my experience. I have no issue with that.

My objection was about courtesy enharmonics. That is something that I feel is usually quite unnecessary.

So, courtesy accidentals: fine. Courtesy enharmonics: not really necessary.

Zuill
Crystal clear. I understand your point now. :)

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Post by John Ruggero » Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:15 pm

That's all music to my ears and a complete mind-meld, gary-duane. It is so nice when that happens. I teach similarly but haven't done your interesting experiments. Bravo! H. Schenker felt that almost all interpretive markings could be omitted and reinstated by a musical person who understood the musical structure, or simply intuitively, as you may have encountered with your students.

Your final comment about hand copying vs computer is so perceptive. In editing from the autograph one encounters cases where the composer changes a notation on a repeat but doesn't bother to correct the original, possibly expecting the editor and engraver to catch on. They rarely did or do.

There is more about redundant cautionaries at http://notat.io/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=258 I make the point there, on the same track as yours, that Chopin is contrasting the chromatic motion in m. 1 with the diatonic motion in m. 2 and the use of all those cautionary accidentals obscures this visually and conceptually. The best composers avoid visual dissonance between the music and the notation.

It would be interesting to hear about your experiences and experiments at Notat.io.
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Post by motet » Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:22 pm

I suspect this is somewhat genre-related. I mainly deal in opera, where pieces are long and rehearsal time is often short, so I err on the side of too many cautionaries. I even put them on C-flats and the like that are in the key signature (opera not unfrequently strays into these remote keys) even where there was no previous C-natural to warrant it. For an amateur chorus, as Mike mentions, enharmonic help might be justified.

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Post by gary-duane » Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:19 am

John Ruggero wrote:That's all music to my ears and a complete mind-meld, gary-duane. It is so nice when that happens. I teach similarly but haven't done your interesting experiments. Bravo! H. Schenker felt that almost all interpretive markings could be omitted and reinstated by a musical person who understood the musical structure, or simply intuitively, as you may have encountered with your students.

Your final comment about hand copying vs computer is so perceptive. In editing from the autograph one encounters cases where the composer changes a notation on a repeat but doesn't bother to correct the original, possibly expecting the editor and engraver to catch on. They rarely did or do.

There is more about redundant cautionaries at http://notat.io/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=258 I make the point there, on the same track as yours, that Chopin is contrasting the chromatic motion in m. 1 with the diatonic motion in m. 2 and the use of all those cautionary accidentals obscures this visually and conceptually. The best composers avoid visual dissonance between the music and the notation.

It would be interesting to hear about your experiences and experiments at Notat.io.
John, I edit anything I teach in a way that suits me. The person who most benefits from this is me. ;)

I find that by "copying" things that are important to me, the act of copying makes me see details that I would never in a million years see just reading the music.

I'll give you one example:

A student of mine is working on the F Minor Chopin Etude, Op.25 No. 2 (if I'm not screwing up.) I have an awful memory for those numbers.

My main concern with the Etudes is the fingering, and I've always like the old Friedheim edition. I suggested that, but gave him a copy of what I've done.

I"m not sure if I put one courtesy/cautionary accidental in the whole thing. Instead, I'll just watch to see what happens. In places where he gets thrown, I'll add them.

I wanted to add the phrasing and started out doing that last night. But I found the same things repeated with different phrase marks, and Chopin might as well have put on phase mark over the whole thing (he comes close to this in the F Major Ballade for long sections), or he could have simply said: sempre legato. I got so irritated with the inconsistency that I just put a phrase over the first four or 8 bars, then said simile.

I do always try to put in dynamic marks exactly, because they give a strong indication how the composer thinks, but no one follows them too literally, as we can immediately surmise by listening to 10 great players play the same things.

So what I'm doing is giving an alternate view of things that are in standard editions. In some cases I probably make things harder for others, and sometime I find later that a "great idea" is utterly terrible. But we now have the opportunity to instantly change things - add more fingering, less fingering, more marks, less marks, flip sharps to flats, and so on.

I always teach the C# Major Bach WTC BOOK I Prelude in Db, then I show my students what it looks like in C# Major and explain why later composers avoided that key. But on the last page or so there is a section that reads much better in sharps, so I flip enharmonically for a few bars, then flip back. Heresy, of course, but it's much more readable, and as a lightning fast reader myself I try to get things so that they can be read as error-free as possible the very first time - something that always helped me as an accompanist trying to prepare things in almost zero time.

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Post by John Ruggero » Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:33 am

You just proved Schenker's point, gary-duane! Chopin DID put a single slur over almost the entire Etude op. 25 no. 2, and you were able to supply it even from the inaccurate Friedheim edition which leaves it out! But why don't you use a more authentic edition? It would make your life a little easier! (I would suggest the superb Wiener Urtext edited by Paul Badura-Skoda.)
gary-duane wrote:I find that by "copying" things that are important to me, the act of copying makes me see details that I would never in a million years see just reading the music.
Absolutely. Bach's students learned so much by copying out his music before they learned it, and we have lost something by having such easy access to printed music.
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Post by Graeme Gilmore » Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:01 am

The attached shows a way I've seen enharmonic advisories in choral music aimed for the high school choir.
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Courtesy Enharmonic.musx
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Post by John Ruggero » Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:49 pm

That's very nice, Graeme, but someone needs to educate these students, rather than coddling them.
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Post by miker » Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:59 pm

We've had the same discussion about Alpha Notes, colored notes, and other crutches. Should you, or shouldn't you?
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