Collisions with dots
Moderators: Peter Thomsen, miker
- John Ruggero
- Posts: 827
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- Finale Version: Finale 25.5
- Operating System: Mac
How does one avoid the following collisions of notes and dots? Note spacing does not seem to take the dots into account.
Last edited by John Ruggero on Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- N Grossingink
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Sheesh! Talk about a worst case scenario. I don't think that you're going to do any better with Finale.
For the first measure, I would select the Note Position Tool (Special Tools), go into Layer 2, draw a lasso around all note handles starting on the F flat and rightwards and nudge them to the right to clear the dots. The rightmost 16th will show the resulting total offset in the data bar. Add this amount as "Extra Space at End of Measure" (Measure Tool) and you should be good to go. Adjust Layer 1 and the bass staff notes to maintain alignment.
If you've got it, could you post a plate engraved example of these 2 measures?
N.
For the first measure, I would select the Note Position Tool (Special Tools), go into Layer 2, draw a lasso around all note handles starting on the F flat and rightwards and nudge them to the right to clear the dots. The rightmost 16th will show the resulting total offset in the data bar. Add this amount as "Extra Space at End of Measure" (Measure Tool) and you should be good to go. Adjust Layer 1 and the bass staff notes to maintain alignment.
If you've got it, could you post a plate engraved example of these 2 measures?
N.
N. Grossingink
Educational Band, Orchestra and Jazz Ensemble a specialty
Sample: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pFF5OeJDeLFGHMRyXrubFqZWXBubErw4/view?usp=share_link
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Sample: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pFF5OeJDeLFGHMRyXrubFqZWXBubErw4/view?usp=share_link
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- John Ruggero
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Thanks Mike and N. As often the case, I wasn't very clear.
I hand adjust things like this in piano music all the time, so it's no mystery to me. What I am after, and I think you gave it to me, is confirmation that Finale doesn't deal very well with dots in its Note Spacing command and will therefore make a feature request over at MM, unless someone knows some setting that I am missing.
A lot of this three-page piece (Chopin Etude op 10 no 6) is like this and it brought home how badly Finale seems to deal with dotted notes, at least with my settings and setup.
http://ks.petruccimusiclibrary.org/file ... 0_scan.pdf
p. 28 etc.
I hand adjust things like this in piano music all the time, so it's no mystery to me. What I am after, and I think you gave it to me, is confirmation that Finale doesn't deal very well with dots in its Note Spacing command and will therefore make a feature request over at MM, unless someone knows some setting that I am missing.
A lot of this three-page piece (Chopin Etude op 10 no 6) is like this and it brought home how badly Finale seems to deal with dotted notes, at least with my settings and setup.
http://ks.petruccimusiclibrary.org/file ... 0_scan.pdf
p. 28 etc.
2020 M1 Mac mini (OS 12.6) Finale 25.5, Dorico, Affinity Publisher, SmartScore 64 Pro, JW Plug-ins, TG Tools, Keyboard Maestro
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"The better the composer, the better the notation."
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I don't think this issue has anything to do with dotted notes per se, but everything to do with the fact that Finale has never been good with spacing items between different layers. If you look closely, the 2nd layer notes do not only collide with the dots in the 1st layer; namely, even when we disregard the dots, the 2nd layer noteheads are too close - in fact under - the right-side notehead of the seconds in the 1st layer.
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- John Ruggero
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Thanks for pointing that out, Ere.
Actually, it's BOTH the dots and the seconds that are the problem, and I was planning to bring this up both in my feature request. Note that on beat 4 of measure 1 in the example above there is no spacing issue between the layers because there are no dots or seconds. But then on beat 1 of measure 2 there IS a spacing issue where there are dots only. Beat 1 of measure 1 and beat 4 of measure 2 are the worst, apparently because there are both dots and seconds. And Avoid Collision with Seconds is checked in my Document Options. There is no setting under Music Spacing for augmentation dots and no setting under Augmentation Dots for distance between the dot and the next note.
Actually, it's BOTH the dots and the seconds that are the problem, and I was planning to bring this up both in my feature request. Note that on beat 4 of measure 1 in the example above there is no spacing issue between the layers because there are no dots or seconds. But then on beat 1 of measure 2 there IS a spacing issue where there are dots only. Beat 1 of measure 1 and beat 4 of measure 2 are the worst, apparently because there are both dots and seconds. And Avoid Collision with Seconds is checked in my Document Options. There is no setting under Music Spacing for augmentation dots and no setting under Augmentation Dots for distance between the dot and the next note.
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www.cantilenapress.com
"The better the composer, the better the notation."
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"The better the composer, the better the notation."
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The real crux of the issue is this:
1. When spacing, Finale checks for collisions between items inside one and the same layer. (E.g. noteheads, accidentals, dots; also seconds, articulations etc. if so chosen by the user in Document options.)
2. Finale also checks for collisions between items in different layers, but only if they occur at the same rhythmical position. (E.g. accidentals on a multi-layer chord are positioned properly.)
3. Finale DOES NOT check for ANY collisions between items in different layers if they occur at different rhythmical positions.
If you look at bars 1 and 2 of the attached image, you see that the lower voice (that's in layer 2) is spaced perfectly with regard to itself. Also the accidentals occurring simultaneously in the two voices are spaced correctly. But the 1st layer notes (the second and/or the dots) collide with the ensuing 16th-notes (or their accidentals) in the 2nd layer EVERY TIME.
The situation becomes even worse in complex rhythmical situations such as bar 4. Here, too, Finale seems to think it has spaced each layer correctly, and indeed it has, but with no regard to the interaction between the layers between the beats. Bad!
So the feature request needed is: Spacing must consider and solve collisions between layers, also between notes at different rhythmical positions.
1. When spacing, Finale checks for collisions between items inside one and the same layer. (E.g. noteheads, accidentals, dots; also seconds, articulations etc. if so chosen by the user in Document options.)
2. Finale also checks for collisions between items in different layers, but only if they occur at the same rhythmical position. (E.g. accidentals on a multi-layer chord are positioned properly.)
3. Finale DOES NOT check for ANY collisions between items in different layers if they occur at different rhythmical positions.
If you look at bars 1 and 2 of the attached image, you see that the lower voice (that's in layer 2) is spaced perfectly with regard to itself. Also the accidentals occurring simultaneously in the two voices are spaced correctly. But the 1st layer notes (the second and/or the dots) collide with the ensuing 16th-notes (or their accidentals) in the 2nd layer EVERY TIME.
The situation becomes even worse in complex rhythmical situations such as bar 4. Here, too, Finale seems to think it has spaced each layer correctly, and indeed it has, but with no regard to the interaction between the layers between the beats. Bad!
So the feature request needed is: Spacing must consider and solve collisions between layers, also between notes at different rhythmical positions.
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- John Ruggero
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Thanks, Ere. It is so much worse than I thought! The fact that I don't deal with ultra-chromatic music with complex rhythms probably accounts for why this hasn't hit me by now.
I will make the more general request.
I will make the more general request.
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"The better the composer, the better the notation."
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"The better the composer, the better the notation."
Ere's assessment hits the nail right on the head: Finale can't deal with collisions between elements at different rhythmical positions. That's also why [long] lyric syllables on [short] melismas create spacing problems. I was curious how Dorico 1.1 (the program's only 6 months old) would deal with these situations. Here they are, except for changing enharmonics completely without tweaking.
I thought I'd try to force Dorico to squeeze the spacing but it's still correct. Note also the correct kerning ('tucking') of the 'a' in voice 2 at the end of the 1st beat of bar 1 and the 'g' and the end of the 2nd beat of bar 2.
Here's Ere's example:
I thought I'd try to force Dorico to squeeze the spacing but it's still correct. Note also the correct kerning ('tucking') of the 'a' in voice 2 at the end of the 1st beat of bar 1 and the 'g' and the end of the 2nd beat of bar 2.
Here's Ere's example:
Vaughan
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I strongly support that this should be made a feature request. At my age I am not very keen on starting all over again with a new program, and would be very happy if Finale could handle layers as well as Dorico.
Last edited by Anders Hedelin on Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Finale 26.3, 27.4.1
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Windows 10
I'll try posting this stuff on the official Finale forum.
Vaughan
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Thanks, Vaughan!
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Windows 10
Windows 10
Done. I hope that John and Ere don't mind my using their examples from this forum. Let's see if anyone from MM reacts.
Vaughan
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- John Ruggero
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I don't mind at all, Vaughan especially since I have made so many Feature Requests lately (as Anders can attest) that they are probably sick of me by now.
Yes, I had wondered about Dorico, and you have certainly answered that question. Now it will be interesting to hear how MM answers your request.
I won't switch to Dorico until it can produce output as good as Finale, with or without manual tweaking, and at least as easily. Give me one beautiful Finale slur, and I'll put up with a little manual tweaking all day long.
Yes, I had wondered about Dorico, and you have certainly answered that question. Now it will be interesting to hear how MM answers your request.
I won't switch to Dorico until it can produce output as good as Finale, with or without manual tweaking, and at least as easily. Give me one beautiful Finale slur, and I'll put up with a little manual tweaking all day long.
Last edited by John Ruggero on Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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"The better the composer, the better the notation."
- zuill
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I know this is only a workaround, but many of us have used it over the years:
Use an articulation with a blank character and select articulations for spacing. Then apply it where needed to force extra space where needed.
Zuill
Use an articulation with a blank character and select articulations for spacing. Then apply it where needed to force extra space where needed.
Zuill
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I've used another, possibly more exact, workaround, entering small note values in a hidden layer which affect the spacing. I would of course very much prefer not to have to.
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- John Ruggero
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Those are great workarounds, Zuill and Anders. Thank you.
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"The better the composer, the better the notation."
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Thank you so much for doing that, Vaughan.Vaughan wrote:Done. I hope that John and Ere don't mind my using their examples from this forum. Let's see if anyone from MM reacts.
Finale 2010b. Finale user since 1994.
Windows 7 & Mac OS X 10.9.5
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I'd much rather we'd all have good reason to thank MM!
Vaughan
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Amsterdam