Collisions with dots

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John Ruggero
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Post by John Ruggero » Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:21 pm

How does one avoid the following collisions of notes and dots? Note spacing does not seem to take the dots into account.
Dots and notes 2.jpg
Dots and notes 2.jpg (41.75 KiB) Viewed 11745 times
Last edited by John Ruggero on Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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miker
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Post by miker » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:16 pm

This might be where beat spacing adjustment would be used.
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N Grossingink
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Post by N Grossingink » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:18 pm

Sheesh! Talk about a worst case scenario. I don't think that you're going to do any better with Finale.

For the first measure, I would select the Note Position Tool (Special Tools), go into Layer 2, draw a lasso around all note handles starting on the F flat and rightwards and nudge them to the right to clear the dots. The rightmost 16th will show the resulting total offset in the data bar. Add this amount as "Extra Space at End of Measure" (Measure Tool) and you should be good to go. Adjust Layer 1 and the bass staff notes to maintain alignment.

If you've got it, could you post a plate engraved example of these 2 measures?

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John Ruggero
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Post by John Ruggero » Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:12 pm

Thanks Mike and N. As often the case, I wasn't very clear.

I hand adjust things like this in piano music all the time, so it's no mystery to me. What I am after, and I think you gave it to me, is confirmation that Finale doesn't deal very well with dots in its Note Spacing command and will therefore make a feature request over at MM, unless someone knows some setting that I am missing.

A lot of this three-page piece (Chopin Etude op 10 no 6) is like this and it brought home how badly Finale seems to deal with dotted notes, at least with my settings and setup.

http://ks.petruccimusiclibrary.org/file ... 0_scan.pdf
p. 28 etc.
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Post by Ere Lievonen » Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:58 am

I don't think this issue has anything to do with dotted notes per se, but everything to do with the fact that Finale has never been good with spacing items between different layers. If you look closely, the 2nd layer notes do not only collide with the dots in the 1st layer; namely, even when we disregard the dots, the 2nd layer noteheads are too close - in fact under - the right-side notehead of the seconds in the 1st layer.
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Post by John Ruggero » Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:24 am

Thanks for pointing that out, Ere.

Actually, it's BOTH the dots and the seconds that are the problem, and I was planning to bring this up both in my feature request. Note that on beat 4 of measure 1 in the example above there is no spacing issue between the layers because there are no dots or seconds. But then on beat 1 of measure 2 there IS a spacing issue where there are dots only. Beat 1 of measure 1 and beat 4 of measure 2 are the worst, apparently because there are both dots and seconds. And Avoid Collision with Seconds is checked in my Document Options. There is no setting under Music Spacing for augmentation dots and no setting under Augmentation Dots for distance between the dot and the next note.
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Post by Ere Lievonen » Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:54 pm

The real crux of the issue is this:
1. When spacing, Finale checks for collisions between items inside one and the same layer. (E.g. noteheads, accidentals, dots; also seconds, articulations etc. if so chosen by the user in Document options.)
2. Finale also checks for collisions between items in different layers, but only if they occur at the same rhythmical position. (E.g. accidentals on a multi-layer chord are positioned properly.)
3. Finale DOES NOT check for ANY collisions between items in different layers if they occur at different rhythmical positions.

If you look at bars 1 and 2 of the attached image, you see that the lower voice (that's in layer 2) is spaced perfectly with regard to itself. Also the accidentals occurring simultaneously in the two voices are spaced correctly. But the 1st layer notes (the second and/or the dots) collide with the ensuing 16th-notes (or their accidentals) in the 2nd layer EVERY TIME.
The situation becomes even worse in complex rhythmical situations such as bar 4. Here, too, Finale seems to think it has spaced each layer correctly, and indeed it has, but with no regard to the interaction between the layers between the beats. Bad!

So the feature request needed is: Spacing must consider and solve collisions between layers, also between notes at different rhythmical positions.
spacing.jpg
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John Ruggero
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Post by John Ruggero » Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:56 am

Thanks, Ere. It is so much worse than I thought! The fact that I don't deal with ultra-chromatic music with complex rhythms probably accounts for why this hasn't hit me by now.

I will make the more general request.
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Post by Vaughan » Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:24 am

Ere's assessment hits the nail right on the head: Finale can't deal with collisions between elements at different rhythmical positions. That's also why [long] lyric syllables on [short] melismas create spacing problems. I was curious how Dorico 1.1 (the program's only 6 months old) would deal with these situations. Here they are, except for changing enharmonics completely without tweaking.
John example less squeezed.png
John example less squeezed.png (20.76 KiB) Viewed 11677 times
I thought I'd try to force Dorico to squeeze the spacing but it's still correct. Note also the correct kerning ('tucking') of the 'a' in voice 2 at the end of the 1st beat of bar 1 and the 'g' and the end of the 2nd beat of bar 2.
John example squeezed.png
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Here's Ere's example:
Ere example.png
Ere example.png (38.12 KiB) Viewed 11677 times
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Post by Anders Hedelin » Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:27 am

I strongly support that this should be made a feature request. At my age I am not very keen on starting all over again with a new program, and would be very happy if Finale could handle layers as well as Dorico.
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Post by Vaughan » Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:36 am

I'll try posting this stuff on the official Finale forum.
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Post by Anders Hedelin » Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:38 am

Thanks, Vaughan!
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Post by Vaughan » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:10 pm

Done. I hope that John and Ere don't mind my using their examples from this forum. Let's see if anyone from MM reacts.
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Post by John Ruggero » Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:45 pm

I don't mind at all, Vaughan especially since I have made so many Feature Requests lately (as Anders can attest) that they are probably sick of me by now. :)

Yes, I had wondered about Dorico, and you have certainly answered that question. Now it will be interesting to hear how MM answers your request.

I won't switch to Dorico until it can produce output as good as Finale, with or without manual tweaking, and at least as easily. Give me one beautiful Finale slur, and I'll put up with a little manual tweaking all day long.
Last edited by John Ruggero on Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by zuill » Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:27 pm

I know this is only a workaround, but many of us have used it over the years:

Use an articulation with a blank character and select articulations for spacing. Then apply it where needed to force extra space where needed.

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Post by Anders Hedelin » Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:42 pm

I've used another, possibly more exact, workaround, entering small note values in a hidden layer which affect the spacing. I would of course very much prefer not to have to.
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Post by John Ruggero » Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:08 pm

Those are great workarounds, Zuill and Anders. Thank you.
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Post by Ere Lievonen » Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:37 pm

Vaughan wrote:Done. I hope that John and Ere don't mind my using their examples from this forum. Let's see if anyone from MM reacts.
Thank you so much for doing that, Vaughan.
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Post by Vaughan » Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:59 am

I'd much rather we'd all have good reason to thank MM! :wink:
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