Strange bar line behavior

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John Ruggero
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Post by John Ruggero » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:34 pm

Using the Measure Tool,

1.one can move an interior bar line completely off the page
barline 1.jpg
barline 1.jpg (24.94 KiB) Viewed 8643 times
to produce a result like this:
barline 2.jpg
barline 2.jpg (16.92 KiB) Viewed 8643 times
But one cannot move a final bar line at all.

2. one can move the bar line before an end of line key signature similarly to produce:
barline 3.jpg
barline 3.jpg (15.01 KiB) Viewed 8643 times
And one can combine 1. and 2.

While I constantly appreciate Finale's flexibility, is this behavior a good thing? Compressing an end of line key change would seem preferable in tight situations; as would complete control over individual key signatures.
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zuill
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Post by zuill » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:45 pm

Since I can't duplicate your results precisely, I'm guessing we are using different settings in our files. Do you have a sample file to examine?

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:49 pm

Ah. You were using the Page Layout Tool. I was trying to do this in the Measure Tool. Your post said the Measure Tool. Thus my confusion.

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N Grossingink
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Post by N Grossingink » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:53 pm

It looks to me like the two examples you picture where the barline becomes detached from the stave are the result of Update Layout problems. What happens if you force an update by pressing Command/U - does everything snap back? Do you have Automatic Update Layout active in the Finale Preferences?

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:02 pm

Okay. When I turned off Automatic Update Layout, I could duplicate the results. I have that on by default. I could force barlines off the page in the Page Layout Tool even with AUL on, but not in the Measure Tool. I thought I was going nuts for a minute (just a minute, though).

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Post by zuill » Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:17 pm

I guess I should have also mentioned that you can move the last barline on a system off the page with the Page Layout Tool, if that is needed. Can't think of a good reason to, but Finale can do it, nonetheless.

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motet
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Post by motet » Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:23 pm

From the measure handles in the picture, it must be the Measure tool.

I might as well add my usual admonition for not turning off Automatic Update Layout. Probably you intended to keep Finale from messing with manual adjustments, but that's not what it does (instead, turn off Automatic Music Spacing only). As someone else pointed out, the layout is updated anyway when you close and reopen the file, so turning it off is pretty much good only for causing confusion (just yesterday someone posted a befuddlement here with the same cause).

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:29 pm

Measure handles move off the page with the Page Layout Tool method, so it isn't necessarily obvious.

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John Ruggero
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Post by John Ruggero » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:02 pm

Oh boy! That cured me of my bad habit of sometimes turning off Update Layout along with Automatic Music spacing. Sorry for the false alarm and waste of everyone's time. No wonder I had never seen that behavior before!

Actually the real incentive for the post was the desire for more control over the spacing within key signatures on an individual basis, particularly end-of-ine ones because of a current need, and a possible Feature Request at MM. If anyone has a comment on that, it would be appreciated.

Zuill, I have never seen measure handles in the Page Layout Tool. Is that a Windows option, or have I missed something? In any case, I wasn't successful in moving a bar line off the page with the Page Layout Tool, even with the margins set to O and negative margins don't seem to be possible. So how are you doing that, not that I would ever need to?
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zuill
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Post by zuill » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:24 pm

The item is "System Space Before/After Music..."

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motet
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Post by motet » Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:08 am

Maybe you or some other Finale old-timer know, Zuill: is turning off automatic update layout from the old days when displays were slow? I can perhaps envision a situation where one could get used to operating in that mode to speed things up, and be aware of typing Ctrl-U now and then as appropriate.

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Post by zuill » Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:13 am

I've always had it on, as far as I can remember.

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John Ruggero
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Post by John Ruggero » Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:36 pm

zuill wrote:The item is "System Space Before/After Music..."
I couldn't get it to work, but who cares. The System Space Before and After is a nice option to know about. Thanks, zuill.

Motet, the reason I sometimes turn off Automatic Update has nothing to do with the old days and everything to do with retaining the hand work I have to do to make the spacing work out, since there are so many spacing issues with layers and other things in Finale. So I do the automatic note spacing of the whole piece first and then turn it off before doing the fine work, using the command-4 to use it on a measure to measure basis as needed, as I guess many do. Somewhere along the line I must have thought that automatic update layout was giving bad effects as well and started to turn it off as well, probably needlessly.

I have never really had any issues with that that I am aware of until I noticed this strange bar line behavior while investigating the issue of spacing end-of-line key signatures. It remains to be seen, at least to me, why turning off automatic update would produce such strange effects and might actually make that a Feature Request as well as the fact that that Finale needs to give one more control over the spacing of key signatures on an individual basis. Unless of course, it does, and I just don't know how to do it.
Last edited by John Ruggero on Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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zuill
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Post by zuill » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:21 pm

In the "At end..." slot try -300, for example. Also, try checking before barline.

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John Ruggero
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Post by John Ruggero » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:17 pm

That worked. Very, very strange. Perhaps you reported it to MM many moons ago; it might be worth alerting them again.
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motet
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Post by motet » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:50 pm

Turning Automatic Update Layout off has foiled many people who have come here and to the old forum for help, so I don't find your experience with the barlines unusual, and I'm not sure MakeMusic would consider it a bug. I don't think having it on or off makes any difference in the "leave my manual adjustments alone" department.

I in fact turn it off when working on a large file in Scroll View--even though it's documented as having no effect in Scroll View!--because with it on, things seem to bog down on large files. I would be happy if MakeMusic fixed this Scroll View problem and then removed the feature entirely. Like I said, I suspect it's a relic of the old days, but if anyone knows of another reason for it, I'd be eager to hear.

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