Just how difficult is it .......

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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:46 pm

to add certain features to Finale? Another thread brought up the idea that, I have asked for a highlighter and someone else has asked for sticky notes in Finale. Plus the addition of a real text editor would be so nice. But this seems to fall on deaf ears, so to speak!. Years go by.

I am not a programmer and am not a techie so I have no idea how difficult it is to do. Or, perhaps, is it too costly to do? Maybe impossible because of ... ?

It seem funny Finale doesn't have some of these 'simple' features because a lot of lesser programs do.
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motet
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Post by motet » Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:51 pm

It must not be easy or they would have done it. I would rather they put their effort into fixing the bugs.

If you need copy/replace etc. of a text editor, do it in another program and paste it in. What Finale has seems adequate.

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Post by zuill » Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:56 pm

I have created items in Finale for this purpose. Not the same as sticky notes, but can be helpful. One is a Smart Shape with extendable right hook to mark edited portion. Also, the file can have bookmarks to select specific measures where the edits were made. These can be named, from what I recall.

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Post by BuonTempi » Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:06 pm

ebiggs1 wrote:Just how difficult is it to add certain features to Finale?
Without seeing the code, it's impossible to know. But it's also not just a question of difficulty; it's a question of priorities.

MM has a small team of developers, with lots of demands on them. Those demands have already been assessed and planned for years to come. Of all the demands made on them, where does highlighters come on the list?

FWIW, I submitted a bug to Apple six years ago. I have submitted its continued appearance on every new OS. It has finally been fixed in the latest public beta of their OS! Assuming it's wasn't the least important item on their list, even a company of Apple's resources has got their work cut out with years of backlog.

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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:52 am

motet wrote: If you need copy/replace etc. of a text editor, do it in another program and paste it in. What Finale has seems adequate.
Not the least bit acceptable to me. It doesn't need to have Word built in but certainly something on the lines of WordPad. And as I recall even if you do it in Word none of the special formatting remains when pasted into Finale. Not colors or fonts, etc.
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motet
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Post by motet » Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:57 pm

Finale text input does have fonts, italics, line justification, etc. The UI is admittedly not so good, but I wonder why you're writing elaborately formatted text in Finale. Front matter, e.g. for a music method book, is better done with DTP software, IMO.

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Post by ebiggs1 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:22 pm

motet wrote:... The UI is admittedly not so good, ... , is better done with DTP software, IMO.
Not so good is an understatement, IMO. If you choose to use other software to complete a simple task most of the simplest software has built-in more power to you. IMO, I can't understand why you or anybody would argue against having a real text editor? It's akin to the icons that were arbitrarily removed in an earlier version. If you don't like icons you don't have to use them but if you do they need to be there. Is is the same with the text editor. If you prefer running two programs at the same time opposed to just Finale, more power to you. The reasonable thing is to have a real text editor.

I am not writing a method book but I still want a real text editor. Now I also want sticky notes as I see a good deal of use from that feature, too. You don't like'em don't use'em.
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miker
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Post by miker » Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:28 pm

Your asking Finale to include full text editing is like asking Word or a DTP program to include notion software.

My suggestion is to use the right tool for the job, and not ask for a single do-it-all program.
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motet
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Post by motet » Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:33 pm

It's a floor wax and a dessert topping!
ebiggs1 wrote:I can't understand why you or anybody would argue against having a real text editor?
For me it's much lower priority than improving music notation features. If they had unlimited resources, I might agree with you. But with software, the answer to "Just how difficult is it?" is "Difficult!" so for me, what they have suffices for putting a title or footer on a page.

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Post by ebiggs1 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 8:10 pm

What little I understand about programing software has me at a disadvantage. But from the folks I have asked and talked to, they tell me text editing packages can be bought for inclusion in existing software. Sorta like mouse routines. Finale doesn't recreate the mouse instructions.

From the competitor;
"At last, you can create a text frame and flow text into it, with separate control over the alignment of the text frame on the page and the justification of the text within the frame. Right-align the text frame containing the composer’s name, but center-align the text within the frame, or create an editorial note with full text justification."

Further;
"To create a comment, simply choose Create > Comment (shortcut Shift+Alt+C on Windows or Shift–Opt–C on Mac) or click the little sticky note icon on the toolbar, ..."

As a general rule I try each new (major) version of Sibelius when they come out. I don't want Finale to fall any further behind. I have too much invested in Finale and do not want to change.

Like I said before if you guys don't want to use the new features, you don't have to. But for the rest of us, we can't because it ain't there. The last time I talked with Mark he sounded positive and I actually think a real text editor will be in the next big release of Finale. But you guys don't have to even look at it if it does !
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miker
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Post by miker » Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:00 pm

"At last, you can create a text frame and flow text into it, with separate control over the alignment of the text frame on the page and the justification of the text within the frame. Right-align the text frame containing the composer’s name, but center-align the text within the frame, or create an editorial note with full text justification."

Finale has done that for years.
Screen Shot 2017-08-22 at 1.58.42 PM.png
Screen Shot 2017-08-22 at 1.58.42 PM.png (77.99 KiB) Viewed 10761 times
"To create a comment, simply choose Create > Comment (shortcut Shift+Alt+C on Windows or Shift–Opt–C on Mac) or click the little sticky note icon on the toolbar, ..."

I agree with you about that. Many of us have been asking for this for quite some time.
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Post by Michel R E » Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:25 pm

meh, when I need to include a note of some sort, I usually just use the "hidden" text option and inset a text block. the text itself is never 100% hidden (unless one sets hidden items to appear as 0% visibility, but by default it isn't set that low).
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Post by BuonTempi » Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:29 pm

ebiggs1 wrote:What little I understand about programing software has me at a disadvantage. But from the folks I have asked and talked to, they tell me text editing packages can be bought for inclusion in existing software. Sorta like mouse routines. Finale doesn't recreate the mouse instructions.
Finale has to work on two platforms. Anything that works differently on the two platforms is double the work. Dorico has used entirely cross-platform UI architecture, and there's an argument that Finale should as well.
But for any significant change to the existing text editing and layout architecture - how will that affect legacy files? How will you splurge that data into the new method?

Finale has most of the basic text layout functions. Yes, the typesetting is a little imprecise and smart quotes as standard would be good. But this for a product where text is a secondary concern to notation.

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Post by ebiggs1 » Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:23 pm

BuonTempi wrote: But this for a product where text is a secondary concern to notation.
But a significant part of music.
I am still in amazement that anyone would argue against adding new features. If it is there and you don't like it or don't want it, don't use it. The rest of the stuff you guys and me come up with are band aids. (pun not intended :D )
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Post by motet » Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:32 pm

No one's arguing against it. It just low, low priority since it can be gotten around with very little trouble.

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Post by Michel R E » Wed Aug 23, 2017 3:54 pm

I'm pretty certain that if MakeMusic added a feature for creating emojis in Finale, there WOULD be people who would use it.
Does that mean that MM should be spending time on adding that feature?

I have yet to come up against any text I needed in a score that could not easily be dealt with using the tools already in Finale.
And for any pages that need a considerably amount of text and graphics placement, I do what is most efficient: I use a program for handling text and graphics placement.

I will never understand people who create covers for their scores within Finale. I do this with a (free) program that is specially designed for that function.
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Post by oldmkvi » Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:58 pm

I have used both the Text Tool and Expression Tool for Notes to myself.
Works fine, no muss, no fuss.
I often wonder about the amount of complaining about Finale.
Zuill offered a perfectly good suggestion about the arrow pointing to the exact spot in question.
Why not just do it and move on?

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Post by BuonTempi » Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:41 pm

ebiggs1 wrote:I am still in amazement that anyone would argue against adding new features. If it is there and you don't like it or don't want it, don't use it.
Finale could have everything! Page rotation and scaling, image processing, improved drawing, script automation, DTP, MIDI editing, DAW capabilities.....

The list is endless. It can't be all there for us for to use or ignore. I'm arguing that whatever the merits of greater text manipulation, there are more pressing concerns.

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Post by ebiggs1 » Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:24 pm

More pressing concerns has no impact on whether Finale gets a real text editor or not. Features have been added and bugs remain.
Did you guys argue against other new features as much as you do on this subject?
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Post by motet » Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:46 pm

Can you give a specific example of when you'd need such a thing? Use of text in music is minimal, in my experience. It may not be as easy to pull down "Justification" from the Text menu as it is to press an right-justification icon, for example, but it's so seldom done that it doesn't seem like a big deal. But maybe I'm not understanding where there is a genuine need.

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Post by BuonTempi » Thu Aug 24, 2017 5:59 am

ebiggs1 wrote:More pressing concerns has no impact on whether Finale gets a real text editor or not.
OK. Let's add improved text layout controls. AFTER an overhaul of the Shape Designer; improved collision handling; fixing of rhythm bugs; SMuFL support; better performance; improved articulations; beam over barlines built-in; "Inspector" pane; new Repeat method; figured bass; intelligent quantization in Hyperscribe; improved Ossias; better support for avante garde music; merging core plug-in functions into main code; continuing overhaul of codebase; oh, and highlighters and sticky notes; the aqueduct and peace.....
ebiggs1 wrote:Did you guys argue against other new features as much as you do on this subject?
Some, yes. :lol: I have previously argued against implementing some features because I thought it was better for the OS or other app to handle the function. No one app need do everything. Otherwise you end up with an abomination like Word, which is jack of all trades but master of jack.

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