Volti subitissimo

[motet]

V.S. = volti subito = turn the page fast. If I wanted them turn the page really fast, could I write subitissimo? Would the abbreviation for that be SS, in the way ff = fortissimo?

[Peter Thomsen]

You could write volti subitissimo, or volti assai subito.
It would probably be understood.

But I suspect that you need an abbreviation, right?
Like e. g. “V.SS.” - right?
The problem is that a such “new” abbreviation might cause questions from the performers - and cost precious rehearsal time.

My guess is that a simple V.S. will do - the performers will soon find out how fast they need to turn the page.

[zuill]

Add ! or !! and call it a day. So, v.s.! or v.s.!!

Zuill

[motet]

Great minds think alike--that's what I ended up doing ("V.S.!")

[Michel R E]

if the engraver bothers to write "turn the page fast", is there really a need to specify "turn the page REALLY fast"?
if it's so fast that you have to specify this, doesn't it make you pause and think "maybe that just too fast a page turn?

I don't know. if it were me I wouldn't bother with specifying the speed at which one must turn a page. I keep VS. for rapid page turns. I don't think it's worth thinking that there are "rapid page turns" and then there are "REALLY RAPID PAGE TURNS". It seems like a pointless distinction to me.

[Jay Emmes]

There is no superlative for 'subito' (which is not an adjective after all), so 'subitissimo' is, well, nonsensicalest.

[motet]

Google serves up tens of thousands of hits for subitissimo, but perhaps they're fanciful--my Italian in non-existent. You're right that subito is an adverb, so touchè, if I may mix languages. It was a silly notion in retrospect, which is why I went with the exclamation point instead.

It may seem like a distinction not worth making if you don't have orchestra playing experience, and even then, in a normal situation the player will learn how fast to turn as Peter points out. I would normally agree with Michel, but this is an arrangement the orchestra might only rehearse once, so I like to err on the side of caution. There is, I think, a difference between "turn the page quickly" and "turn as fast as you possibly can" (I've seen people dog-ear the page in this situation so it can be grabbed fast). I of course try to avoid any sort of bad page turn, but alas it was inevitable in this case. Better than some sort of three-page solution.

[Djard]

I was taught to write with the reader in mind. So if time is limited, the less to read the better. But I like the exclamation point.

[Ere Lievonen]

There is no superlative for 'subito' (which is not an adjective after all), so 'subitissimo' is, well, nonsensicalest.

Not quite true. Subito is both an adjective and an adverb; for both usages, subitissimo is a valid (absolute) superlative.

[Jay Emmes]

Right, as in 'immediately, immediatelier, immediateliest'.

Anyhow, an indication like that only has meaning when playing a prima vista. Otherwise, the player will have read past the page turn at least once and is able to estimate how quickly the page needs to be turned regardless.

[motet]

And yet apparently it's a word, so perhaps not so foolish as you might think. Language is often illogical.

This is orchestra music that may only be rehearsed once rather than a piano sonata studied for months, so it seems like a reasonable and harmless precaution. I speak from decades of experience. I have forgone "subitissimo" in favor of an exclamation point, so I'm not sure why you're arguing against it.

[Ere Lievonen]

Right, as in 'immediately, immediatelier, immediateliest'.

I believe the correct wordings in English are immediately, more immediately, most immediately.

[Michel R E]

im·me·di·ate·ly
iˈmēdēətlē/
adverb
adverb: immediately

1.
at once; instantly.
"I called immediately for an ambulance"
synonyms: straightaway, at once, right away, instantly, now, directly, promptly, forthwith, this/that (very) minute, this/that instant, there and then, then and there, on the spot, here and now, without delay, without further ado, posthaste; More
quickly, as fast as possible, speedily, as soon as possible;
informalASAP, pronto, double-quick, on the double, pretty damn quick, PDQ, in/like a flash, like a shot, tout de suite;
humoroustoot sweet;
archaicforthright
"it was necessary to make a decision immediately"
2.
without any intervening time or space.
"she was sitting immediately behind me"


I'm not sure how one can be "more" instantly. There are no degrees of immediacy. It is "now" or it is not. There is no "more or less".

[Djard]

Too bad we don't use Hebrew as the term 'immediately' would include the idea of hurried. In koine Greek...even better, for the modifier with the aorist tense that is exclusive to Greek conveys precipitous and uninterrupted action. And if in the middle voice, again exclusive to ancient Greek, 'parachema', would mean for the page turner to participate in the result of the action. Finally, in the Greek perfect, the result of turning the page would abide, not ever turning back.

It's all Greek to me.

Michel makes a good point, though. Abbreviating the term is adequate. The exclamation point is OK but might also be misnterpreted as vocative, a dictatorial command
instead of direction. As we see in this thread, communicating to creatives opens the door to all kinds of possibities.

But at the end of the day, the composer has the power and freedom to express his work just about any way he wishes within the confines of the nomenclature, and remain correct.

[BuonTempi]

But at the end of the day, the composer has the power and freedom to express his work just about any way he wishes within the confines of the nomenclature, and remain correct.

If you're saying "the composer is always right", I'm not sure I'd agree! The critical words are "within the confines of the nomenclature". There's plenty of composers whose works have benefitted from more accurate or legible notation through the intervention of an engraver, while doing no damage to his intentions.

I'm vaguely reminded of that Gardner Read quote that someone used to have as their sig, about players not needing to bother performing works if the composer doesn't bother to present them well.

[N Grossingink]

https://youtu.be/zaR3sVpTB98?t=5m30s

[motet]

I have in front of me the Universal Edition of Mahler's Third Symphony. It's full of exclamation points, both in tempo markings and in what Finale likes to call technique text. There's even an occasional "ppp!". Do you really think such exclamation points offend thin-skinned performers who resent being dictated to?

Mahler was a working musician, a conductor with a lot of experience in both the concert hall and opera house. Clearly he felt that such emphasis would be helpful.

[zuill]

What tickles me is that we are still using Italian for music instructions. It only became a common practice when Italy was the center of culture and training, and the terms and symbols were carried back to the home countries of those who came to study there. French composers eventually began to use French indications. American composers have been using American indications (not to be confused with English, which, according to some English, is a different language).

Just stirring the pot a bit.

Zuill

[oldmkvi]

Mahler also had Instrument Changes that couldn't be done!
Changing to A Clarinet in one beat, for example.
Also Very fast page turns can't always be accommodated,
and the sound of pages being whipped over can be distracting, and also Record very well!
Sometimes a xerox of the next page is added as a pull-out.

[motet]

I doubt very much Mahler was involved with laying out page turns, but if he had, I wouldn't be surprised to see "V.S.!"

Having some kind of "lingua franca" (so to speak) is useful so that performers can read the music no matter what their native tongues, so I think there's more to it than quaintness. Mahler's German presents a problem; a lot of performers aren't going to understand "Bogen" or "geteilt." Ditto French. But everyone knows the Italian versions of those.

[oldmkvi]

Yes, I and my colleagues always use VS.
Still, there's a limit as to How Fast is fast.
When I write myself into a corner with number of pages or bad page turns, I re-write the Music.
They can't play when they are turning or adjusting pages.
The Sound of Silence isn't always appropriate...

[N Grossingink]

It seems to me that in more recent years, many publishers insert a blank page within a part in order to force good page turns. Of course, the page is always marked "This page left blank in order to facilitate page turns". Seems like a good idea.

N.

[BuonTempi]

I have in front of me the Universal Edition of Mahler's Third Symphony. It's full of exclamation points, both in tempo markings and in what Finale likes to call technique text. There's even an occasional "ppp!". Do you really think such exclamation points offend thin-skinned performers who resent being dictated to?

I remember singing Mahler 2 for Gilbert Kaplan, and he brought everyone a photocopied page of Mahler's original score, to show that he DID write pppp (or ffff).

Of course, the page is always marked "This page left blank in order to facilitate page turns". Seems like a good idea.

Until you see my avante garde work, where the instrumentalists have to recite that sentence aleatorically....

[David Ward]

It seems to me that in more recent years, many publishers insert a blank page within a part in order to force good page turns. Of course, the page is always marked "This page left blank in order to facilitate page turns". Seems like a good idea.

This is what I've done from time to time with an inserted blank page (scroll down to see the arrow in the middle). It seems to be instantly understood.

In manuscript I used to have a clockwise spiral with an arrowhead, but with Finale the arrow shown here seems easier and just as effective.

[motet]

I do exactly what David does.