Not exactly what I expected

[Jay Emmes]

Finale never ceases to amaze me. This is what I get when I tell Finale to rebar a 5/4 and a 7/4 measure into two 6/4 measures. Shouldn't really be too difficult, I thought. Mind you, the piece is only 56 measures long, but Finale somehow goes well over 100 measures when done rebarring. I guess I'll undo and perform the rebarring manually…

[N Grossingink]

It worked for me. In the attached, measure 3 and 4 started out the same as 1 and 2. I selected the Time Signature tool, highlighted measure 3 and 4, specified 6/4 meter and checked "rebar".

N.

Rebar.png (101.19 KiB) Viewed 15434 times

[Jay Emmes]

I have noticed that Finale behaves quite nicely in simple setups and with straight forward note material, but begins to mess things up once the setup gets larger and the notation gets a little more complex. 'Move notes to next measure' (Speedy Edit option), e.g., works perfectly in examples as you have given here below, but when the score gets larger this option will simply delete the measure the extra notes came from and replace that measure with a copy of the measure formed by the extra notes. The rebar function also works well in simple examples, but in a larger setup and with a tat more complex rhythm than straightforward quarter notes, Finale goes berserk.

[motet]

Can you attach a misbehaving file?

[zuill]

I would like to see one too. I've not had problems with rebar or move to next measure.

Zuill

[Jay Emmes]

I'm sorry, but for obvious reasons I'm not willing to share a score over the internet that has not yet been registered in terms of copyright and for the same reasons am not allowed to share one that has been registered. And I'm quite unwilling to produce a mock score of substantial size solely for the sake of demonstration.
If I'm the only one who persistently encounters the same flaws in documents created in Finale, it must be my setup and/or my workflow that causes these problems. In that case an attached document wouldn't provide any clues anyhow.

[MikeHalloran]

Then, for the reasons you stated, it looks like you have a problem.

What does MM Support have to say about this?

[zuill]

Possibly Automatic Update Layout is off. Try a manual Update Layout.

Zuill

[motet]

It looks like it is (never a good idea), but that doesn't explain the added measures.

[zuill]

Since we can't see the file, I can't comment on the change in measure numbers. That might have a legit explanation, but we'll never know.

Zuill

[BuonTempi]

If I'm the only one who persistently encounters the same flaws in documents created in Finale, it must be my setup and/or my workflow that causes these problems. In that case an attached document wouldn't provide any clues anyhow.

Can you supply a screenshot of the Time Signature dialog?

[Jay Emmes]

I attempted to rebar a 5/4 measure and a 7/4 measure into two 6/4 measures. Evidently, those are the first two measures (m.9 and 10) in the screen shot. Why Finale adds 91 (!) empty measures after these two is beyond me. Is it because Finale can't handle the fact that there is already music after the measures that need to be rebarred? Or is it because of the tuplet in the cellos?

Whatever it is, on my system Finale will do something haphazardly outrageous in any score that's a bit more intricate than, say, a 50 measure 4 staves set up:

• - Finale will draw double slurs or a slur from the top stave all the way down to below the page.
  - When I ask to move extra notes into the next measure Finale will overwrite the original measure with a mirror of the measure with the moved extra notes.
  - Accidentals (cautionary or not, frozen or not) will appear and disappear at will.
  - I cannot change (lift) the horizontal alignment of crescendi and diminuendi over system breaks.
  - Finale will suddenly ignore crescendi and diminuendi in playback.
  - Or ignore arco and pizzicato altogether and will play whatever it feels like playing.
  - Isn't even shy to mute entire voices in playback on its own accord.
  - Finale will play whatever length of a grace note, regardless of the duration entered in the Document Options.
  - If Finale doesn't corrupt its own preferences file, it will corrupt any document of some substance eventually.

The list goes on and on.

What MakeMusic says to all this? That Finale isn't really meant to handle extensive editing. Take a moment to make that sink in. This essentially means that Finale isn't a suitable tool for composers (I wonder why they advertise it as such then? Flaunting with Ferneyhough as a Finale user then seems a tat out of place, really, doesn't it?), but aimed at copyists since extensive editing may likely corrupt Finale documents. Quote: "Truly, it is better to keep the edits to a minimum in my opinion. Sometimes the fixes can be successful in the moment but cause trouble later on." In my experience, that 'sometimes' can without exaggeration safely be replaced by 'most if not all of the time'.

[Jay Emmes]

Can you supply a screenshot of the Time Signature dialog?

I'm not exactly sure what you hope to see in that screenshot. I'm sure it looks the same as anyone else's Time Signature dialog.

[David Ward]

What MakeMusic says to all this? That Finale isn't really meant to handle extensive editing. Take a moment to make that sink in. This essentially means that Finale isn't a suitable tool for composers (I wonder why they advertise it as such then? Flaunting with Ferneyhough as a Finale user then seems a tat out of place, really, doesn't it?), but aimed at copyists since extensive editing may likely corrupt Finale documents. Quote: "Truly, it is better to keep the edits to a minimum in my opinion. Sometimes the fixes can be successful in the moment but cause trouble later on." In my experience, that 'sometimes' can without exaggeration safely be replaced by 'most if not all of the time'.

On the face of it, this seems rather an odd thing for MM to say.

That said, none of my many heavily edited files have become corrupted (as far as I know).

[N Grossingink]

Jay, as an experiment, make up a brand new Finale file that has the instrumentation of the file that has the rebar difficulties. Copy in the time signatures and note entries of the two measures, the 5/4 and the 7/4. Try the operation again. Do you still get the same results?

N.

[zuill]

In the screen shot, I see that the action is to next time change. What happens if you just select the two bars and only make the change for those 2 bars?

Zuill

P.S.: Additional comment: I have done many complex edits on complex files and Finale has done everything needed, based on things being done correctly. Usually, reports of Finale misbehavior often are less about Finale and have a cause that can be determined and modified. Occasionally, the preferences is the cause, and need to be regenerated. But usually, I have found, even for me, that the steps taken caused the problem, and those steps can be modified to avoid the apparent "bug".

[ebiggs1]

"...it is better to keep the edits to a minimum in my opinion."

This is probably good advice. Not defending MM in any way, however, whether it is a Photoshop, Word doc or Finale file, less edits has to be better.

[motet]

The Human Playback anomalies don't surprise me, but the other things do. I routinely work with 1,000- to 2,000-measure files times 10 to 20 staves and don't have these problems, so it's not the file size per se. It does look like from your first example that you have Automatic Update Layout turned off, which can certainly cause bizarre results. If that's the case, turn it back on--there's nothing to be gained by turning it off.

[Jay Emmes]

@Zuill, the screen shot of the Time Signature dialog says nothing. I took the screen shot because I was asked for it. It's not a screen shot of when I asked Finale to produce two 6/4 measures from a 5/4 and 7/4 measure; it merely a screen shot of the opened dialog.

When I tried to perform the time signature change (incl. rebarring) I specified the measure region to be from measure 9 through 10.

Actually, Finale does what I ask it to do — most of the time. But at times Finale does so much more. When I look at the first screen shot, I see that Finale did do the time signature change and rebar as I asked it to, but it unsolicitedly also inserted 91 empty measures. Finale did what it had to do — but it didn't stop there.
When I tell Finale to move the extra notes to the next measure and I end up with two consecutive measures that are the same (i.e. the measure with the moved extra notes overwriting the original first measure), a couple of 'undos' will get the correct result in both measures. Finale did what it had to do — but it didn't stop there.
When I end up with double drawn slurs, Finale did draw the slur I wanted, but didn't stop there and drew a second, uncalled for one.
Etcetera, etcetera.

I don't consider this to be 'bugs' in the application (of which there are plenty as well, mind you) but corruption of documents.

@Motet, Automatic Update Layout was turned off (now turned on, unlike me), but this cannot explain the addition of 91 empty measures when only two already existing measures should be altered.

_________________________

I have no doubts that fewer edits will lead to fewer problems in any application, but an application that claims to serve in creative processes should be able to handle numerous edits as the creative process is by definition a process of trial and error. Does MakeMusic propose to return to pencil and paper and only turn to Finale once the creative process is more or less completed and the scrap can be transferred into calligraphy? That's a copyist's tool, not a composer's tool.

Just about every time I contact MakeMusic because a document misbehaves, they confirm the problems with the document. Just about every time the 'solution' is to export to XML and import the MusicXML into a fresh document, thus confirming that the original document in some way has been 'corrupted'.
Yes, starting anew will solve the problem (circumvent it, actually), but will result in new (or the same) problems along the way when the score becomes more substantial and has been edited a number of times. The problem continues to point towards the frequency and extensiveness of use of a document. And Finale contributes to this by considering a document 'altered' by opening it, by having it play back, by exporting MusicXML, you name it, by thus writing to the document continuously.

Apparently, my documents are more prone to corruption than any of yours and perhaps that's because I use Finale in a different way than all of you do, probably less expertly than any of you. That's my bad luck, I suppose, but it underlines once again that Finale to date is less the application that meets my needs than it was 24 years ago.

[zuill]

My first big project, which was actually my first Finale project, was with version 3.5, I believe. It was so primitive compered to finale v25. I would have done almost anything to have had v25 back then.

Sorry that you've had so many problems. I'm grateful that I haven't.

Zuill

[Jay Emmes]

24 Years ago (v.3.2) I had to use workarounds for the things Finale couldn't do. Today (v.25.3) I have to use workarounds for the things that Finale should be able to do, but doesn't or at best does miserably. I'm not sure which version I prefer.

[Jay Emmes]

Now Finale is just mocking me. Where are the endings of the diminuendi? They're there in scroll view, but from the second violin down they've disappeared in page view.

[David Ward]

To what is the end point of the diminuendo anchored (see screenshot)?

To be definitive we would need to see the file itself. However, I suspect that if the anchor point is not to a place on the new page, the dim hairpin may not carry across in page view.

[BuonTempi]

Apparently, my documents are more prone to corruption than any of yours and perhaps that's because I use Finale in a different way than all of you do, probably less expertly than any of you. That's my bad luck, I suppose, but it underlines once again that Finale to date is less the application that meets my needs than it was 24 years ago.

If I could not reply on the integrity of my documents, and Finale was causing me so many problems that I felt it "did not meet my needs", then I would ditch it.
MuseScore and Lilypond are both free and very capable; and there's Sibelius or Dorico, both available with cross-grade pricing.

However, the fact that many of these problems are rare or absent from most other people's experience gives me hope that the cause can be discovered and fixed, or avoided at least. But that investigation would ideally require someone who is familiar with Finale and Macs to poke around your computing environment, and look through your documents, or to watch you work, which is more than can be done remotely, without considerable time, effort and rigour.

[zuill]

Again, we know little about the actual files, as they are not able to b shared for troubleshooting. Another guess we might be able to make is that these files were made in much earlier versions, or maybe based on templates from earlier versions. That can sometimes cause problems.

I too am beginning to believe that maybe Finale's usefulness might be in question for the OP, as there are way too many unsolvable issues.

Zuill

P.S.: I would be willing to look at a file if it were sent privately to me. Again, these behaviors are not directly caused by Finale, from what I can see. There are some odd settings, maybe, or file corruption, or possibly a corrupt preferences file. This is not normal Finale behavior.