Not exactly what I expected

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Jay Emmes
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Post by Jay Emmes » Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:28 pm

@David Ward:
The smart shapes are all anchored to the start of the last half note value of measure 22 and the eighth note rest (after the dotted quarter) in measure 23. So yes, the end anchor is on the last page. I finally got the smart shapes back in view in page view by confirming beginning and end of each individual smart shape, i.e. select the smart shape and move both beginning and end of the shape one pixel ahead and back.

@Zuill:
I create a new document from scratch for every new project, as much of a pain in the rear as that is.
I do not use templates, since they became useless with quite a few version upgrades and I very soon lost patience to recreate templates time and again. Having to recreate the preferences file with just many version upgrades was as much of a nuisance I'm willing to put up with as it is, not in the least because all options are scattered all over the place inside the application and have been moved around — location wise, between versions — on top of that.
Nor do I reuse cleared older documents since it became very clear very soon that "clear everything" in Finale does not mean that everything gets cleared. Clefs remained, all kinds of MIDI data remained, etcetera.

________________

I'm convinced that I'm not speaking of 'bugs' in the application (at least not in these cases), since these anomalies seem to be specific to my documents. Something is somehow corrupting my documents one after another. Also, the fact that exporting the MusicXML and importing the same into a new document does overcome the problems points towards the fact that the original document is somehow corrupted. If it were bugs exposing themselves, they would be present in the new document as well, wouldn't they?

I understand that you can do very little with as little information as I am giving you and I really do appreciate every effort all you guys are putting in to this. If I could be certain that viewing a document would reveal what caused corruption, I would send the current document over private mail. But then again, the MakeMusic customer support representatives usually could verify the corruption of the documents, but never were able to find the cause.
Running Finale 25.4.1.163 in OS X 10.11.6


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motet
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Post by motet » Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:32 pm

Why are the hairpins of different length for Violin I and II?
Jay Emmes wrote:...the MakeMusic customer support representatives usually could verify the corruption of the documents, but never were able to find the cause.
Some of the participants here are more knowledgeable than MakeMusic customer support. Why not take Zuill up on his offer? I understand your reluctance to post electronic copies of your pieces publicly, but it seems very unlikely he's going beat you to the copyright office with your unfinished piece. If you share a copyrighted work, on the other hand, you're already protected.
Last edited by motet on Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:40 pm

Here's what hairpins across a system should look like, if applied correctly. So, it can be done. This was a quick demo to show how all staves can have the same thing. I'm not saying the look is perfect, as it is not, necessarily. Since there are no notes, it doesn't really make sense. However, every hairpin has a termination on the following system.

Zuill
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BuonTempi
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Post by BuonTempi » Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:34 am

Jay Emmes wrote: I understand that you can do very little with as little information as I am giving you and I really do appreciate every effort all you guys are putting in to this. If I could be certain that viewing a document would reveal what caused corruption, I would send the current document over private mail. But then again, the MakeMusic customer support representatives usually could verify the corruption of the documents, but never were able to find the cause.
Are these documents all based on the same template files, (or Document Styles, or default files)? Were these base documents created many years ago, and re-saved over and over again?

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Jay Emmes
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Post by Jay Emmes » Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:15 am

motet wrote:Why are the hairpins of different length for Violin I and II?
They are not. In scroll view they all were visible at full length. As said before, I managed to persuade Finale to show the entire length of the hairpin by selecting all the hairpins one by one and one by one do some editing on them (in this case by changing and undoing the length).

I'm aware that full hairpins can be drawn in Finale — that's how I drew them and (I'm fairly sure) that's the only way one can draw hairpins: closed at one side, regardless of the length of the hairpin. I then selected all diminuendi of that the entire string section in that measure, option clicked on the diminuendo in the first violin and chose to align all of them vertically, so they all were anchored to the same beat, beginning and end. Something, however, did cut off the back end of the hairpins in page view. Not in scroll view, where the full length was still visible.

@BuonTempi:
None of the documents are based on templates, as I said before. Each and every one is created from scratch at the start of a project, for that project only, with the help of the Setup Wizard. I do not use document styles. I do not reuse documents.
Yes, each document is saved over and over again, as I like to keep the loss of work to a minimum in case of an unexpected disaster (not all that farfetched since I'm aware of often working in corrupted documents). Finale also demands frequent saving by its own doings, as I said before. Simply opening the document leaves the document in an unsaved state. Exporting to audio of XML leaves the document in an unsaved state. Simply moving Finale to the background for an instant leaves the open document in an unsaved state. Etcetera, etcetera.
Running Finale 25.4.1.163 in OS X 10.11.6

BuonTempi
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Post by BuonTempi » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:45 am

Jay Emmes wrote:Each and every one is created from scratch ... with the help of the Setup Wizard. I do not use document styles.
If you're using the Setup Wizard, then you are using a Document Style, even if it's just the "Engraved Style" one, which is essentially the Maestro Font Default file.

By '"re-saved", I meant over years, across several different version of Finale, rather than just frequently every 5 mins or so. (I use an app, ForeverSave 2, to automatically save my working docs every 2 mins, and maintain successive versions as backups.)
But if you're using the Maestro Font Default file included with Finale 25, then we can rule out any corruption as a result of ancient templates saved across multiple versions.

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:27 pm

I've tried several different ways to apply hairpins to staves, and none of my approaches gives the result of the OP. So, preferences corruption or file corruption or user error are the 3 main causes, as far as I can see. Same with changing meter and rebar. I don't get a hundred extra measures. This has never happened to me. Finale is rock solid handling these 2 tasks.

Zuill
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"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

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Jay Emmes
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Post by Jay Emmes » Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:00 pm

Today Finale removes clefs changes at will. In an open document, while working somewhere further on in a different sta, Finale removes a clef change earlier on. Not once: repeatedly.
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David Ward
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Post by David Ward » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:02 pm

Jay Emmes wrote:… …Finale removes a clef change earlier on. Not once: repeatedly.
There is both a cause and a cure for this behaviour which I did experience once some time ago. Unfortunately I can't remember the details, but a Google search of the old forum may find something about it.
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miker
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Post by miker » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:37 pm

Could it have to do with having any independent elements in the score?
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motet
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Post by motet » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:38 pm

It may be the bug with multiple regions and "don't include in measure numbering." The workaround is to change the program preference from "display defined measure numbers" to "display actual measure numbers."

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David Ward
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Post by David Ward » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:28 pm

motet wrote:It may be the bug with multiple regions and "don't include in measure numbering." The workaround is to change the program preference from "display defined measure numbers" to "display actual measure numbers."
This was indeed the cause when it happened to me in May 2016. I've found the relevant thread on the old forum https://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=6&m=476942
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zuill
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Post by zuill » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:38 pm

This was discussed even further back than that. Look at this old thread:

https://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=5&m=308675

Zuill
Last edited by zuill on Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jay Emmes
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Post by Jay Emmes » Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:52 pm

Thanks again you all for your participation.

In this case there are no multiple regions and consequently no regions either excluded from measure numbering.
Finale kept changing the clefs of violas and violoncelli (surprisingly not of bassoon and double bass) back to the default clefs. Fortunately, this strange behaviour was limited to that one session and gone the next time I launched Finale.

But it is this unpredictable behaviour that makes working with Finale more of a burden than a blessing. I never know what to expect, what may, nay: what will go awry in any particular session. Meaning that I also can never be sure of the end result once a piece is completed. It is all too likely that slurs will be missing or double drawn, accidentals will be missing, clef changes may have disappeared, etcetera. And we all know that proofreading isn't the most appealing task.

It remains a dark mystery what causes all of my documents to become corrupted. Truth be told, I rarely encounter problems in small set ups (chamber settings). Anything larger though (the document of this thread is no larger than 9 staves, mind you: four winds and five strings) can and will cause Finale to behave in peculiar ways.
Running Finale 25.4.1.163 in OS X 10.11.6

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motet
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Post by motet » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:39 pm

Unfortunately, I don't think we'll be able to help with non-specific reports such as this. Your best bet when something happens is to try to reproduce it and send a file and set of instructions to MM. I can tell you that your experience is far from universal, so something else might be going on besides bugs or a flakey program. (I routinely work with large files and don't experience the problems you mention, but I am on Windows, use an older version. etc.) If you just want to vent, though, that's fine.

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:52 pm

Since we are not going to see a file, I'm guessing we'l never know. Sometimes these things are quite solvable. Maybe the hard drive is corrupt, so that should be checked.

Zuill
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"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

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