Stem direction in linked, voiced parts

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GAM
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Post by GAM » Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:13 am

I'm running into an issue while using the voicing feature of linked parts, and I'm curious if I'm doing something incorrectly or if it's a known problem.

If I have a linked part which uses voicing, I am unable to make any changes to the stem direction using the special tools menu. Now, I understand my editing capabilities are limited since I'm using voicing, however, my issue is that stem changes in the score are not reflected in the part either! So I can not find any way of actually forcing the stem direction while maintaining the linked part.

Is there a setting I don't know about? The easiest way to recreate this is simply using a new default document, then going to 'manage parts' and check the 'specify voicing' box for the default Part 1. If you make stem changes on the score, they are not reflected in the part, and it is not possible to adjust the stems while in the part view.

I appreciate any help on this -


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zuill
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Post by zuill » Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:47 am

There are limitations to voiced parts. A workaround I often find more useful is to hide the layer not needed with a staff style. That might work for your situation. However, since we don't have your file for testing, and we don't know exactly what you are trying to do, we might just be guessing.

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GAM
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Post by GAM » Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:17 pm

Zuill,

Thank you for the reply, but I don't think staff styles can solve this for me. I've attached a sample file showing the issue, though it's just a dummy document. If you look at the part, which is voiced, there appears to be no way to achieve the custom stem direction that I've applied to the second measure of the score. (I realize a voiced part makes no sense for this document, I'm just demonstrating the problem).

The stem direction tool, while available to select, has no effect on the part, and the fact that I made stem direction changes in the score also has no effect on the part. This feels odd to me, as stem direction seems like something that should be editable even in a voiced part. This feels almost more like a bug since I can select the stem direction tool, unlike things like the simple entry tool, which can't be selected at all.
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TestFile.musx
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motet
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Post by motet » Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:22 pm

I personally avoid "voiced parts" like the plague. Instead, I put each part in its own staff and then combine them into a new staff for the score*. That way you know exactly what you're getting and don't have to rely on Finale to tease them apart and deal with problems like this. I know that may not help you at this point, but perhaps you could "explode" your voiced staves and somehow reset the stems to the default if they're still screwed up in the result.

*You can make your printed score a "part" that has the combined staves but not the individuals.

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Post by GAM » Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:35 pm

Thanks Motet - I'm thinking that in the future I'll be taking your advice and avoiding the use of voiced parts. These little details end up taking so much more time to work out using them! I was mostly just making sure there wasn't a setting of some kind that I don't know about that would be affecting this issue, but it appears that's probably not the case.

I appreciate the help -

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:26 am

I'm not sure why you're using voiced parts, as there is only one layer in the sample file.

Maybe I'm missing something.

Zuill

P.S.: See the attached file and examine how Staff Styles are used. The 2 linked parts are not voiced.
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Staff Styles vs Voiced Parts.musx
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GAM
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Post by GAM » Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:55 am

Zuill,

Sorry again for not being clear enough. I was able to achieve the result I wanted in my actual file using other methods, but the sample file I posted was a "dummy" file purely to illustrate the problem - I mentioned that voiced parts make no sense for the sample document. It was just the simplest way I could let others see what I was describing.

I believe the conclusion to this is that there is no way to control the stem direction on parts when using the voicing feature. I personally believe this to be oversight, or perhaps even a bug given that I can select the tool, but either way I have an answer to the question of "am I missing something here?".

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Post by Gareth Green » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:35 pm

I realise that other users may be creating scores with far more complex notational requirements than I commonly need, however I have to say in fairness that I have been using voiced linked parts for several years now, and I have never come across the difficulties that some users describe. Of course the function has it's limitations, and as Zuill says the judicious use of staff styles is often necessary to overcome specific problems, most notably in instances where one part is tacet and requires a multi-measure rest in the part.

But in general I have no problems with it. I will readily admit that it took me some time to figure out, and that the initial setup required to get it working satisfactorily is time-consuming and sometimes tortuous, but now I have templates ...

I do not understand the OP's problem at all. I can conceive of no circumstances where the kind of stem direction changes he describes would be either necessary or desirable. But, as I say; most of the work I do is notationally undemanding, so there may well be circumstances where voiced parts fail that I simply wouldn't encounter.
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Post by Skjalg » Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:24 pm

The 3 major limitations in voiced linked parts:
• No Special Tools editing is possible
• Grace note spacing
• Enharmonic flips can not be done
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Post by Gareth Green » Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:49 pm

Skjalg wrote:... major limitations in voiced linked parts:
...
• Grace note spacing
...
Really? I was under the impression this had been fixed ...

Haven't had to deal with this in recent projects, but I do remember having problems in the early days of linked parts.
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Post by Gareth Green » Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:51 pm

Skjalg wrote:... major limitations in voiced linked parts:
...
...
• Enharmonic flips can not be done
Why would anyone want enharmonic spelling that was inconsistent between score and parts? Sounds like a recipe for wasted rehearsal time ...
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Post by Gareth Green » Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:54 pm

Skjalg wrote:... major limitations in voiced linked parts:
• No Special Tools editing is possible
...
...
I'd have to concede this; but as I said earlier, the majority of the work I do isn't sufficiently complex to warrant the use of Special Tools, so I've never come across it as a limitation.
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:55 pm

Gareth Green wrote:… Why would anyone want enharmonic spelling that was inconsistent between score and parts? Sounds like a recipe for wasted rehearsal time …
Enharmonic flips could be relevant in the case of a score in Concert Pitch, with linked parts notated in Transposed Pitch.
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Post by Gareth Green » Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:23 pm

Peter Thomsen wrote:
Gareth Green wrote:… Why would anyone want enharmonic spelling that was inconsistent between score and parts? Sounds like a recipe for wasted rehearsal time …
Enharmonic flips could be relevant in the case of a score in Concert Pitch, with linked parts notated in Transposed Pitch.
Possibly in the case of atonal/neutral key music, I suppose; for myself, I prefer concert pitch scores and transposed parts to follow the same "spelling" rules.
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Post by N Grossingink » Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:44 pm

Some of us in the publishing industry still use extracted parts. As much as anything else, this has to do with the day to day publishing workflow.

A typical workflow for a finished engraving job might be to print out score and parts (in score order). Then the whole stack gets proofed against the manuscript, score and each part, one by one. Corrections are indicated in red ink. Next, an editor takes the proofer's stack and enters the corrections on each Finale file, score and parts, one by one. No need to check placement of added text by flipping between score and linked part (usually necessary) because the added text is right in front of you. The trade-off is you need to add each occurance twice, on the score then later down the line on the part.

To say nothing of differing page text font sizes between score and parts, or the 3rd Flute/Piccolo who jumps 2 staves up when switching from Flute to Picc., and then back down again. Or the 2nd Clarinet who spends most of its time on the Clarinet 2/3 stave but occasionally travels to the Clarinet 1 stave and then back. I know there are solutions for these with linked parts, but they're clumsy.

I say this not to be a contrarian, but it might be worth considering going to extracted parts if linked parts become cumbersome.

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motet
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Post by motet » Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:20 pm

Voiced parts only complicate linked parts even further.

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Post by Gareth Green » Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:08 pm

N Grossingink wrote:...it might be worth considering going to extracted parts if linked parts become cumbersome.

N.
I absolutely agree, and I have done this on numerous occasions where circumstances have made it desirable. My only issue is with those who seem to be dismissing linked/voiced parts out of hand, whereas in fact in some circumstances they can be made to work quite effectively.
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Post by Gareth Green » Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:10 pm

motet wrote:Voiced parts only complicate linked parts even further.
Indeed; but that doesn't mean that in some circumstances they can't work very efficiently.
Last edited by Gareth Green on Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Gareth Green » Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:22 pm

I apologise if I'm coming across as some sort of evangelist, but the fact is that for some of my work I use linked/voiced parts quite effectively. As most regular users of the software know, there are often several different ways to "skin a cat", as it were. I work on some projects where linked/voices parts don't work particularly well, but not many. I particularly don't understand the issue with differing font sizes, because I am usually able to overcome these with a combination of either Fixed sizes, or "Show/Hide" options. Cumbersome? Yes, sometimes, but insurmountable? No.
I gave up on extracted parts long ago (except in exceptional circumstances) primarily because the whole concept of having to edit things twice was, in my mind, almost a guarantee of creating discrepancies between score and parts.
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Post by Skjalg » Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:02 am

Gareth Green wrote: Why would anyone want enharmonic spelling that was inconsistent between score and parts? Sounds like a recipe for wasted rehearsal time ...
Nope. I write for amateurs, and some parts are in multiple transpositions (horn in F/alto horn in Eb or trombone in bass clef/Bb- transposition treble clef, one part for kids in all imaginable transpositions etc). To avoid double sharps/flats, I do enharmonics flips when needed. It SAVES rehearsal time, believe me! An amateur trombone player who sees a Bx...
On the other hand, in the score everything has to be correct.
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