What's stopping you from upgrading to F25?

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Moderators: Peter Thomsen, miker

What's stopping you from upgrading

I need to swap old files with others
0
No votes
The new method of X is worse than before
0
No votes
There's a new showstopper bug
0
No votes
I can't justify the cost
1
20%
Something else
4
80%
 
Total votes: 5

BuonTempi
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Post by BuonTempi » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:40 pm

Finale 25 was released in August last year, and has had 4 free major updates since then, with the promise of more on the way. Much of this work has renovated the crumbling framework of Finale's ancient code, along with many bug fixes and new features.

If you're still using an earlier version, what does it offer that F25 does not? What would you need to see in F25 to make you move up?

The usual upgrade fee is $149, though I think there is or was a promotion for $99 recently...?


Bill Stevens
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Post by Bill Stevens » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:55 pm

Nothing is stopping me -- I have upgraded and use 25.4 almost exclusively. But I have a zillion files (yes, I counted them) in 2011 and I would like to be able to open them and perhaps make small changes, which I can do in Sierra.

If 2011 won't open at all in High Sierra then I will need to decide whether to stick with Sierra or upgrade, which I would prefer, and bite the bullet on my two zillion files (I just re-counted and it's two zillion).

Bill
Version 26.3 / 27.4 / Mac OS 10.15.5 Catalina
Finale user since the beginning of time.

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motet
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Post by motet » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:11 pm

I have a 32-bit computer.

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Michel R E
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Post by Michel R E » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:13 pm

I have 25, but not the most recent update.
I had read that some people had some difficulties with sound, or with sample libraries, which worried me a little.
I was hoping someone might reassure me about this, have any playback annoyances been dealt with?
Plain vanilla 25 works fine for me, but f there are stability fixes and what-not, I'd be happy to upgrade.
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
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N Grossingink
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Post by N Grossingink » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:15 pm

First of all, I'm pretty sure the font problems I've been experiencing are unique to the Macintosh platform. Second of all, I do own Finale 2014d, 2014.5 and 25. The difficulties have led my most important engraving client to ask that all work be done exclusively on Finale 2012. They are a major US publisher, not some fly by night outfit.

The attached PDF illustrates the problem. Fonts that display properly on Finale 2012 display incorrectly on any of the newer versions, appearing in a default generic typeface. The font list tags these fonts as "missing", but as you can see the fonts show up further down the list as installed and active. One can "remap" to the active font by editing the text and selecting the working font. This however becomes unworkable in the case of the MetTimes font, which is used for Staff Names on Concert Band and Orchestra scores. You'd have to edit dozens of full and abbreviated names one by one.

This problem has been reported by a few users in previous years, on the old Make Music forum. It's of no consequence to me that most users do not experience these problems. If a few have the problem, everybody has the problem because they own the same software.

N.

I had a hell of a time uploading the attachment. What, this forum doesn't take PDF? It kept meowing at me that the jpg was too large, so the attached may not be too clear due to resizing.
Attachments
FontProblem.jpg
FontProblem.jpg (29.52 KiB) Viewed 16621 times
N. Grossingink
Educational Band, Orchestra and Jazz Ensemble a specialty
Sample: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pFF5OeJDeLFGHMRyXrubFqZWXBubErw4/view?usp=share_link


Mac Mini 2014 2.6 Ghz, 8Gb RAM
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BuonTempi
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Post by BuonTempi » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:20 am

Bill Stevens wrote:Nothing is stopping me -- I have upgraded and use 25.4 almost exclusively. But I have a zillion files (yes, I counted them) in 2011 and I would like to be able to open them and perhaps make small changes, which I can do in Sierra.
I keep PDF copies of all my "finished" projects, so that I can always print from that without worrying about Finale moving things when I open the document.
You can also set the preferences in Finale to open old .mus files with the same name but a .musx extension. The first save will create the new file in the original location. (The default is to create "Untitled.musx", for some reason.) Thus you will keep the old file, for what it's worth, and have a new .musx one.
There are ways to automate the creation of the new files. FinaleScript has a batch convert script, for starters.
Last edited by BuonTempi on Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

BuonTempi
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Post by BuonTempi » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:38 am

N Grossingink wrote:The attached PDF illustrates the problem. Fonts that display properly on Finale 2012 display incorrectly on any of the newer versions, appearing in a default generic typeface. The font list tags these fonts as "missing", but as you can see the fonts show up further down the list as installed and active. One can "remap" to the active font by editing the text and selecting the working font.
This is actually the rare instance of destructive bug fix. For several versions prior to 2014, font styles and assignments were handled very poorly on the Mac version of Finale. As a result, the problem font assignments need to be re-selected with the 'correct' name in new versions.
N Grossingink wrote:This however becomes unworkable in the case of the MetTimes font, which is used for Staff Names on Concert Band and Orchestra scores. You'd have to edit dozens of full and abbreviated names one by one.
There are many way to automatically change font names, globally, or for specific items, in Finale - there's the Change Fonts plug-in (which allows you to change the Staff Name fonts); there's the Document > Data Check > Font Utilities; and most useful of all, there's Edit > Text Search and Replace, which lets you change fonts for specific items, also including Staff Names. (Something I was unaware of until MikeR pointed it out to me.)

It's unlikely that you'll see a 'fix' to change things back to how they were. Having to replace the fonts might be annoying, but it's neither lengthy nor insurmountable. I dare say a major publisher might have a tame nerd who could create a Lua script for Jari's Lua plug-in, or some other automation, that would do all the work in one go.
(Thought: I don't know whether a round-trip through Windows might fix it...?)

I suppose the question is: is staying on 2012 the best solution to this issue as the years go by?

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elbsound
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Post by elbsound » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:54 pm

N Grossingink, did you read the article I posted two weeks ago about Finale font name handling?
Have you tried all the workarounds that I mention at the end of the article?
https://elbsound.studio/font-names-in-finale.php

It is very likely that there is an easier solution than editing each font name individually.

Jan
https://elbsound.studio

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N Grossingink
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Post by N Grossingink » Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:31 pm

elbsound wrote:Have you tried all the workarounds that I mention at the end of the article?
Jan, thank you for pointing out your font troubleshooting guide - lots of good ideas. I'll keep this at hand for reference.

For now, I have a solution for the biggest problem - the many staff names. Buon Tempi pointed out the "Change Fonts" plugin. Using this, I'm able to fix all of the staff names by remapping to the active font with one keystroke.

N.
N. Grossingink
Educational Band, Orchestra and Jazz Ensemble a specialty
Sample: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pFF5OeJDeLFGHMRyXrubFqZWXBubErw4/view?usp=share_link


Mac Mini 2014 2.6 Ghz, 8Gb RAM
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N Grossingink
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Post by N Grossingink » Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:41 pm

BuonTempi wrote:There are many way to automatically change font names, globally, or for specific items, in Finale - there's the Change Fonts plug-in

I suppose the question is: is staying on 2012 the best solution to this issue as the years go by?
Thank you for your comments and tips. I had forgotten about the "Change Fonts" plugin, which does indeed solve the problem with the staff names. One click, and done!

So far as staying on 2012, it does the job flawlessly day in and day out. However, as I pointed out, sticking with 2012 is my client's call. I myself would like to move on to v25.

N.
N. Grossingink
Educational Band, Orchestra and Jazz Ensemble a specialty
Sample: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pFF5OeJDeLFGHMRyXrubFqZWXBubErw4/view?usp=share_link


Mac Mini 2014 2.6 Ghz, 8Gb RAM
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jzucker
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Post by jzucker » Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:10 am

if you are a jazz musician or use finale for writing jazz instructional methods as I do, I literally cannot find a single compelling reason to upgrade.

64 bit and claims of the ability to more efficiently add new features are a strawman claim. Those are engineering technical debt, not end-user features. I've actually never heard of a company attempting to use internal engineering tech-debt claims as end user features. In the automation industry you'd be laughed out of the marketplace if you claimed that.

And on top of that, where's Finale 26 with a bunch of wiz-bang new features and GUI enhancements? It seems the claims they made are false.

IMO, it's a poor attempt to garner more income . I hope I am wrong but I have the feeling that at some point we will all be looking for alternatives because I don't see how they can sustain development with the current path.

[edit]
Also, tech support for 2014.5 has been horrible. Every bug I have submitted has been refuted by their tech support has been refuted and I'm forced to do video capture of my screen to prove it.

Some folks have said you *MUST* upgrade just to get bug fixes but I don't buy that and I won't support that development model until they prove they care about the features that appeal to me.

The UI is still a mess and they haven't addressed that and don't seem interested so until then, I'll stick with 2014.5

BuonTempi
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Post by BuonTempi » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:45 pm

jzucker wrote:And on top of that, where's Finale 26 with a bunch of wiz-bang new features and GUI enhancements? It seems the claims they made are false.
Which claims? AFAIK, they have abandoned the annual new version. Now, there's just Finale, with continuing free updates. Sounds like a good way to garner income to me.
jzucker wrote: I hope I am wrong but I have the feeling that at some point we will all be looking for alternatives because I don't see how they can sustain development with the current path.
I won't support that development model until they prove they care about the features that appeal to me.
So you hope that MM continues as a business, but not so much that you're prepared to invest in its future, even if the bugs you want fixed are fixed in a new version?

As per my original question, what features and fixes would convince you to upgrade?

Bill Stevens
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Post by Bill Stevens » Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:49 pm

I decided to upgrade to High Sierra, and no, 2011 will not run.

I get a crash when it tries to initialize MIDI.

Oh well.

Bill
Version 26.3 / 27.4 / Mac OS 10.15.5 Catalina
Finale user since the beginning of time.

jzucker
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Post by jzucker » Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:27 pm

BuonTempi wrote:
jzucker wrote:And on top of that, where's Finale 26 with a bunch of wiz-bang new features and GUI enhancements? It seems the claims they made are false.
Which claims? AFAIK, they have abandoned the annual new version. Now, there's just Finale, with continuing free updates. Sounds like a good way to garner income to me.
jzucker wrote: I hope I am wrong but I have the feeling that at some point we will all be looking for alternatives because I don't see how they can sustain development with the current path.
I won't support that development model until they prove they care about the features that appeal to me.
So you hope that MM continues as a business, but not so much that you're prepared to invest in its future, even if the bugs you want fixed are fixed in a new version?
Since they have denied virtually every bug I've reported, I don't have any faith that they are fixed.
As per my original question, what features and fixes would convince you to upgrade?
The main thing I would like to see improved is the elimination of the tool based modality and blurring the functionality of simple edit and speedy edit. For example, the tuplet entry in simple is ridiculous IMO. The user model requiring you to take your hands off the keyboard to do things like moving the selection are unproductive. They need to hire a team to do nothing other than make the GUI more efficient. Photoshop is even more complex than finale and yet you can do almost everything without having to take your hand off the keyboard. To start with, how about assigning keystrokes to all tools. I know you can assign function keys to tools but that usually requires taking your hands off the querty keyboard.

But fixing the bugs , making the UI work without the mouse, improving the hyperscribe and midi input - perhaps even allowing audio to midi input, and realizing that playback isn't the most important thing to some users would be a good start.

But I'd also like to see things like the ability to align articulations and expressions more bulk type operations like changing pitches on selected items, more control over accidentals, etc.
Last edited by jzucker on Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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miker
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Post by miker » Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:03 pm

Of course, I'm not nearly as expert or efficient as other users, but my two cents…

Yeah, there are things that make me pick up the mouse. And other things that keep me on the keyboard. But I'm not sure I could remember more keyboard shortcuts than I already have cluttering up my brain. And going back to the mouse on occasion is probably better for my hands and wrists.

Since I don't depend on Finale to make a living (and thank all the gods for that!) I'm perfectly happy to keep chugging along in my own way.
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David Ward
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Post by David Ward » Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:26 am

FWIW I've been editing a couple of fairly large (2,000–4,000 bars, 50–70 staves) vocal and orchestral scores in F 25.4 without problems, except the need to relaunch from time to time when things begin to slow after Finale has been open for two hours or so. These scores were originally created by me in F2003–F2010 but are undergoing major editing, including insertion/incision/reordering of substantial sections, changes to orchestration &c &c.

I like F 25.4 in Sierra, but am postponing installing High Sierra for now.

EDIT: Perhaps I might add that having spent the first 60 years of my life until 2001 (more than 50 of these years musically active) working with manuscript of one kind or another and both pens and pencils, I am astonished and delighted that any computer music typesetting software works at all, particularly for the relatively complex scores I sometimes write.

Since I started with Finale in 2001, there have been steady improvements for which I'm hugely grateful. For me it would be churlish to carp interminably about the inevitable minor irritations, which does not mean that I'm afraid to mention it when something doesn't work for me. That said, my first assumption is usually that the cause is something I have been doing wrongly (except when this is clearly not the case). I don't get every version of Finale, and certainly not the moment it is released, but (perhaps unfortunately) I think the world of computers is such that one shouldn't remain too far behind and expect things to run smoothly.

And it's not just computers and software that need to be updated: in my lifetime, even writing in manuscript has changed somewhat. I now use only A3 plus occasional A2 and some A4 MS paper sizes, as opposed to all the weird and wonderful sizes of the old days. I now use 3B pencil, instead of various pens and India ink etc etc etc.
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BuonTempi
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Post by BuonTempi » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:43 am

jzucker wrote:Since they have denied virtually every bug I've reported, I don't have any faith that they are fixed.
You don't need faith: you can test the demo for free.
jzucker wrote:Photoshop is even more complex than finale and yet you can do almost everything without having to take your hand off the keyboard. To start with, how about assigning keystrokes to all tools. I know you can assign function keys to tools but that usually requires taking your hands off the querty keyboard.
Not sure I get this. In both Photoshop and Finale, I generally have one hand on the mouse and one on the keyboard. I can select a tool (in either) with the keyboard and draw or select with the mouse. For more complicated shortcuts, or for typing, in both apps, it's easier to put both hands on the keyboard. So the experience is broadly the same. In Photoshop, I find it easier to use both hands for the New Layer shortcut, and there's plenty of menu items that have no shortcut. Drawing a clipping path requires using the mouse.

If Finale's history teaches us anything, it is that we can expect one area to be revised at a time, alongside bug fixes and minor improvements. You are not going to see an entirely new UI overnight. And, given the outcry whenever the rumour goes round about Speedy Entry being removed, I doubt you'll see a unified entry tool in the near future. As for modality, even Dorico has different tool modes. I don't think you could get away from that.

I agree that Finale still needs more work, and I'm keen to push for the UI refinements and functional capabilities that people need.

Piano Pete
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Post by Piano Pete » Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:20 am

Is it possible to keep both 2012 and 25 on the same system? I have ran into issues in the past keeping different versions of the same program on a single computer. They were not Finale, but they seemed to fight each other, especially when dealing with where and how defaults/templates were stored. With the constant stream of issues that ensued, I opted to physically keep them on separate systems.

Does Finale play nice with itself?

Since I am looking to get serious with my engraving workflow, I do not want to go through the effort of having everything nicely set up in 2012 just to have it blow up in my face haha :?

--- From reading the "What's New" page, I do not see any super improvements that make me jump for joy :I
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motet
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Post by motet » Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:58 am

Yes, I've got three versions installed.

jzucker
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Post by jzucker » Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:23 am

you don't have to get rid of the modes. Just give every mode a hot key (not an FN key) so you can easily switch between them without a finger buster and put up a little spreadsheet editor to allow you to customize.

jzucker
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Post by jzucker » Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:26 am

oh, and one more essential...Finale should have the ability to remember where you are in speedy or simple so if you jump to another tool and then want to edit notes again, you should be able to jump right back to where you were without having to click and reposition the input cursor

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MikeHalloran
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Post by MikeHalloran » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:51 am

if you are a jazz musician or use finale for writing jazz instructional methods as I do, I literally cannot find a single compelling reason to upgrade
Then don’t. No one holds a gun to your head.

Don’t upgrade your computer and keep it off the internet except to email files. Best to get something else for those tasks. Operating systems will keep upgrading. Internet security is the compelling reason. Howl at the moon if you like but you will not change this.
64 bit and claims of the ability to more efficiently add new features are a strawman claim....
Says you. 32 bit is dead on the Mac next year; with Windows, it’s coming.

Nothing wrong with a dedicated music work station running an old OS that does only what you want. I still keep an old G4 for a few tasks that cannot be done any other way. I don’t use it for anything else, though. Too old and useless.
Last edited by MikeHalloran on Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mike Halloran

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MikeHalloran
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Post by MikeHalloran » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:56 am

Back to the OP, dropping the Movie Window has caused many to move to Sibelius or Notion. Some compose in Finale and then export via MusicXML to a compatible program or DAW. Rewire leaves a lot to be desired for many.
Mike Halloran

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ghmus7
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Post by ghmus7 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:57 pm

I have used Finale for something like 20 years. In my opinion, it is s***t software. It crashes, hangs up, slows down, plain does not work, does not playback consistently, messes up using score merger etc. There are multiple problems EVERY DAY. Just today, I have spent an hour so far, just trying to get Finale to receive input from my simple plug n play keyboard...It worked perfectly fine yesterday!! And NOW MM HAS DROPPED ALL PHONE SUPPORT!

I compare this software to others that I use: for example Sony Soundforge - a rather multi-layered complicated but of code...crashes? NEVER? hangups? never, malfunctions? never. It Works smoothly and perfectly every time out of the box!

Every year I look for an alternative. This year, I think I will do it,. what do you out there who depend on a notation program know about alternatives, has any one used the newer notation programs?
Thank you for this rant, Please forgive me!
Gregory Hamilton

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motet
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Post by motet » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:05 pm

ghmus7 wrote:has any one used the newer notation programs?
I'm sure someone has!

I agree that Finale is buggy. Yet somehow, I have made peace with it and am fairly satisfied. It crashes once in a great while, but with Autosave I've never lost much work. I wonder why others like you have so much trouble.

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