allowing rhythmic values not to add up

[lynndavidnewton]

Isn't there a setting in Finale that allows me to put however much music I want in a measure, even if it adds up to too much?

I've been dealing half the day with a section where I have multiple broken tuplets against each other, e.g. 5 eighths in two quarters versus 6 eighths in two quarters, and both of them include multiple values and rests and also jump between staffs. Like one is a quintuplet (5-tuplet, 5 eights in two quarters) with an eighth and two quarters. And there is a sextuplet, (basically two ordinary triplets but I'm beaming them together) and there are rests on the 2nd and 5th sextuplets.

The details above don't matter. It gets a lot more complicated than that later on.
The point is that Finale keeps trying to helpfully correct things for me and messing everything up.
It's driving me nuts.

I know what I'm doing musically. The rhythms are correct and as I want. My problem is with Finale throwing in rests an not allowing me to type in a quarter instead of an eighth or whatever. And so on. Anyone who has written this type of thing knows what I mean -- it's hard to explain verbally.

So what I'm hoping is there's a way to turn off that self-correcting in Finale so I can just go ahead and type in what I want and then delete any extra cruft that got thrown in.

Help! Thanks.

[zuill]

The different entry tools allow you to turn off the option to check for extra notes. Also, the measure tool allows you to position notes evenly across the measure, as in a cadenza.

Zuill

[lynndavidnewton]

Again I have Zuill to thank for pointing out how to find what I needed.

Seems to me that for people who are reasonably competent musically, leaving those automated checking features off by default might be the easiest way to go. Sure, there's a possibility of making a mistake, but it will show up eventually. Do a lot of Finale users find that's true? Is there an option somewhere to just leave that off as a default?

I do try to check the online manual and other resources before bothering the forum. Sometimes It's hard to formulate a good search string.

I also learned from 25 years working as a software engineer in a room with about 80 others that often the fastest way to figure something out that I ought to know is to holler over the wall at the guy in the next cubicle. Saves hours of digging through manuals if someone nearby just knows.

[miker]

If there is a default that you don’t like, change it in your defalt docs and templates.

And, of course, it’s just my opinion since I’m not a professional like you, but I think measures ought to contain the right number of beats.

[lynndavidnewton]

Thanks Miker:

I don't use default docs and templates. Everything I've done has been modified, usually starting from the wizard.

I'm haven't been a "professional" in music in any reasonable sense of the word since about 1982. (Was for twenty years before that, though, and I've been around great music through my family since birth.) At this point I'm basically a hobbyist.

I agree with measures containing the right number of beats. My problem was with the way you type something in and Finale winds up erasing something to make use of it or pushing stuff further down the measure over into the next measure and messing that up.

For instance, say I start a tuplet, say a 5-tuplet, 5 eighths in two quarters. Except I want that 5-tuplet to be an 8th+quarter+2 8ths. Maybe the next to last eighth a rest.

I might type an eighth on the first one, and Finale conveniently sticks in a bunch of eighth rests for me to fill it out. But I want the next note to be a quarter (under the tuplet). If I try and cover the eighth rest by inserting a quarter, it will shove the last eighth rest over and mess up whatever else I've typed. Or if I try to first delete one eighth rest and then type my quarter, it does something else ... I've forgotten what. Tries to forget that I was entering a tuplet or something.

I'm capable of adding up the values and making sure everything is neat and tidy before moving on. What I'm *not* capable of doing at this point is making Finale behave. I'm sure it operates fine. I just need to figure out how it works and what's most convenient. Meanwhile I'm beating my head against the wall.

Thanks for the thoughts.

[motet]

It sounds like maybe you are entering the notes and then afterwards going to the separate tuplet tool to turn them into tuplets. If so, you would certainly run afoul of the "too many notes" check. There is a better way of entering them right from Simple or Speedy entry that will then let you retain the check, which is in fact useful. If this is the case, let us know which entry method you're using--Simple or Speedy--and maybe we can steer you in the right direction.

[miker]

Motet is correct. Entering the notes, and then creating your tuplet, is a sure course to madness, especially with anything mixed or complex. It's much easier to define the tuplet first, and then enter the notes.

[lynndavidnewton]

clip4.jpg (60.96 KiB) Viewed 9637 times

OK, here's a problem that came up immediately after my last post. See the attachment.
The two measures pictured are essentially identical. The meter here is 4/4 time.

Notice that in the second measure (the original) there is a spurious eighth note under the
bar line. A curious place for it, and I could not delete it and have no idea how it got there.

Frustrated, I inserted a new single measure stack to the left and re-entered the entire measure.
This time entering the tuples provided no problems whatever.

When I was finished, I pressed escape or something, went to the selection tool. As I did that,
another spurious rest showed up, this time the quarter rest you see at the end of the first
measure shown.

Like the spurious eight rest in the second measure, I have no idea how it got there and cannot erase it.

Anybody seen this one before? Now I hope my image attached correctly.

[motet]

Why is there a sextuplet, a quintuplet, and a quarter rest in measure one, but no quarter rest in measure 2? Does the quintuplet in measure 1 span a quarter note or a half note?

I suspect the problem is how you're defining the tupets, but one can't tell what that is from the picture.

[miker]

How are the tuplets defined? Is it 6 eight notes in the space of 4 eight notes, followed by 5 in the space of 4? Without knowing what you are aiming for, it’s hard to know what is right or wrong.

[lynndavidnewton]

Miker, Yes, as described in my immediately previous post. 6 8ths in 4 is really the same as
two simple triplets, but I choose to bind them together.

Perhaps I should use ratios. Would it be --- 6:4 --- and --- 5:4 --- ?
That looks right.

Thanks.

[motet]

-

[motet]

How to enter tuplets:

In Simple entry, enter the first eighth note, then press Alt+Keypad9 (or Mac equivalent) and pick 5 in the space of 4, or whatever it is. Click OK and Finale will fill out the rest of the tuplet with rests, which you can then change to notes.

In Speedy entry, press Ctrl-5 for a quintuplet, then enter 5 eighth notes or rests.

[lynndavidnewton]

How to enter tuplets:
In Simple entry, enter the first eighth note, then press Alt+Keypad9 (or Mac equivalent) and pick 5 in the space of 4, or whatever it is. ...

Motet, that works.

I've been selecting the triplet (tuplet) tool from the Simple Entry before entering my first eighth with Shift+Mouse.
(Because that's what a manual page somewhere in that vast heap of information says to do.)

But either way takes you to the same pop-up which tells you to fill in X number of Y kind of notes in

I'll do it the way you describe from now on instead. BTW it's Option + KP9 on the Mac.

On this score I haven't (so far) been using speedy entry because I'm doing little note entry. The notes for the first part I put in 12 years ago, and now I'm revising and adding expressions and articulations, etc. Mostly point and click with the mouse work.

I've got two more movements to do from scratch when the first part is done.

And between now and then I have a great deal to learn, including how to be more fluent with Speedy Entry.

I think I've solved this problem. Thanks to all for their patience.

[miker]

And don’t overlook the value of the repitch tool, if you have this as a repeating figure, with different notes.

[Peter Thomsen]

… BTW it's Option + KP9 on the Mac …

While it is true that the default is Option + Keypad9, it should be added that you can customize (program) your own Simple Entry keyboard shortcuts.
You can even save your set of custom keyboard shortcuts.

Look here:
Simple menu > Simple Entry Options > Edit Keyboard Shortcuts…

[motet]

With the mouse, it looks like you pick the duration of the first character and the triplet icon from the palette, then Shift+click where you want the note to appear, which brings up the tuplet definition dialog. Seems to work in your situation.

[lynndavidnewton]

With the mouse, it looks like you pick the duration of the first character and the triplet icon from the palette, then Shift+click where you want the note to appear, which brings up the tuplet definition dialog. Seems to work in your situation.

Yeah, but I was having problems, but when I followed your procedure to the letter I had no problem. I'll do it your way!
And thanks for the clue.

I've got many more problems to tackle in this piece, the biggest being beaming between staves.
I'll post questions as I can formulate them.

Don't know what I'd do without the help of contributors to this forum. Thank you all.

[bachelorbob]

The different entry tools allow you to turn off the option to check for extra notes. Also, the measure tool allows you to position notes evenly across the measure, as in a cadenza.

Zuill

Where are these "different entry tools" in Finale 25.5? I had no problem entering extra beats in a measure in Finale 2012. For early music, which often lacks bar lines, typesetting frequently requires entering too many beats in a measure. In Common time, a half note, then whole note, then half note = 2 measures. Finale wants the whole note split into 2 tied half notes. Early music typesetting wants the whole note to *stay* as a whole note. I could make this happen in previous Finale versions. I cannot locate where to disable the 'extra beat checking' in 25.5.

[N Grossingink]

Simple Entry - select Simple Options in the Simple menu
Speedy Entry - check/uncheck in the Speedy menu

N.

[BuonTempi]

The Note Entry tools have not changed between 2012 and 25.5. Simple or Speedy Entry. Both have menu options to Check for Extra Notes, or not.

For early music, which often lacks bar lines...
Early music typesetting wants the whole note to *stay* as a whole note.

"In some styles of early music edition,", note values are preserved at the expense of barlines. Further confusion can be created with Mensurstriche, giving the worst of both worlds.
However, such editions frequently engage in other compromises to the original notation (when it comes to ligatures, coloration, prolation/proportion that is not by two, validity of source accidentals, tied notes over system breaks in the original, etc) that makes me question the necessity, unless the purpose is a facsimile recreation in score, rather than an edition for present-day musicians.

[Vaughan]

Well said!