tone clusters

General notation questions, including advanced notation, formatting, etc., go here.

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lynndavidnewton
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Post by lynndavidnewton » Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:05 am

How do I insert tone clusters? A search of the on line manuals is not very clear.
It shows some graphics of various ways to represent clusters, but not a way
to insert these characters or exactly where they are found. I see something
about alternate fonts.

Do I need some sort of font that is not supplied with the product?
If so, how do I get it?
If I need to invoke a special font that is part of Finale, how do I
do that?


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motet
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Post by motet » Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:39 am

Can you attach a picture of what you want?

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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:55 am

cluster.gif
cluster.gif (3.2 KiB) Viewed 9515 times
The cluster shown in the attached graphic was done in this way:

Special Tools Tool > (sub-tool) Notehead Position Tool

Click inside the staff/measure to get handles on the noteheads.

Select the handle on the top notehead, and hit Return to get to the Notehead Settings.

Change the notehead’s font to the Engraver font.
Replace the default character with the ; (= semicolon) character.

OK

Select the handle on the middle notehead, and hit Return to get to the Notehead Settings.

Change the notehead’s font to the Engraver font.
Replace the default character with the : (= colon) character.

OK

Select the handle on the bottom notehead, and hit Return to get to the Notehead Settings.

Change the notehead’s font to the Engraver font.
Replace the default character with the … (= ellipsis) character.

OK

If you have a region filled with a gazillion clusters, consider using a staff style to change the notehead font for the entire region.
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lynndavidnewton
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Post by lynndavidnewton » Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:58 pm

I asked a couple of question and then have been away for a couple of days, appearing to ignore responses. Sorry.

Motet asks for a picture of what I want. Um, I suppose if I could supply a picture, I could engrave it. But I've supplied an image in which all of the spans in the chords shown are expected to be played with flat hands encompassing all notes between the extremities. (Never mind being fussy about it or how difficult or practical it is.) The point is only how to notate it. I see several examples in the online manual materials, but am unsure how to produce them.

Peter Thomasen, that method looks promising. I've moved to another part of the project but will come back to it and give it a try.

Umm. What if the cluster is on a black note (quarter, eighth, etc.) rather than a half? Is there a similar device that works for that?

Seems to me there's also a method of adding a vertical line between the note heads on the non-stem side. But I don't find a tool I can add the line with. Would have to be a smart tool of some sort, i.e., stretchy, right?
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cluster.jpg
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miker
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Post by miker » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:42 pm

https://usermanuals.finalemusic.com/Fin ... onts15.htm

This shows the characters for solid noteheads, as well as the vertical line.
Screen Shot 2017-11-22 at 10.43.31 AM.png
Screen Shot 2017-11-22 at 10.43.31 AM.png (95.42 KiB) Viewed 9453 times
So, I was able to do it, but now, I have a question: For each glyph, I selected the particular notehead, and chose EDIT... from the context menu. I changed the font from Maestro to Engraver Font, deselected "Use Default Character," entered the new character, and hit OK. Fine. Once. I had to repeat the entire process for every glyph. Is there a way to get Engraver Font and the deselect to stick, and just let me enter the correct glyph for each one? Nor was I able to drag select multiples. The handles would select, but when I went to Edit, the selection defaulted to one.

EDIT: AHA! Thanks to Peter, I got it. I set up a Staff Style for cluster chords, with the Engraver Font Set. Then, using the return key and the keyboard shortcuts, it was much quicker. This forum is (cue Tony the Tiger) GREAT!
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zuill
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Post by zuill » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:02 pm

Jari's JW Change plugin can help in this process to a certain degree. I've experimented with an approach that can save some steps.

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miker
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Post by miker » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:12 pm

Zuill,

I looked there, but didn't really see anything to help, unless you can add to the notehead change list.

Can you elaborate?
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zuill
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Post by zuill » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:28 pm

You can change the font to all noteheads in a chord at once. You can then change all the noteheads to the one needed for the center notes. Lastly, using the filter, change the top and then the bottom notehead. I think this can save a bit of time.

Zuill

P.S.: That's for a Half Note. For a Quarter, all the noteheads are the same. I haven't experimented with the one with the line between.
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lynndavidnewton
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Post by lynndavidnewton » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:34 pm

Jari, I'm returning to Finale after a long absence, and there are a lot of things I've forgotten or don't know about.

I've seen the term "JW Plug-In" flashed about and see that it doesn't seem to be a part of
what is delivered with the system.

I found a site that lists this. This is off-topic, but is this a useful set of tools I should acquire?
Is it free or does it cost money?

Can you summarize in a couple of sentences what the value of these plug-ins is?

I have one set of plug-ins not delivered with the software, the TGTools, and I also have the
Garritan Professional Orchestra. Which I guess doesn't exactly count as a plug-in, but it's
something I had to add

Sorry if these questions belong in the beginners category.

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:51 pm

You can find the plugins on Jari's Finale Tips website, Search for Jari Williamsson Finale Tips. Get the 64bit versions for Finale 25.

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miker
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Post by miker » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:09 pm

Lynn,
The TG Tools that come with Finale is a stripped down set. You can purchase the full set at http://www.tgtools.de/index-en.htm

JW Plugins are available free, at http://www.finaletips.nu/index.php/download. Jari does accept donations. Please do, if you find the tools to be useful. As Zuill said, make sure you download the 64-bit versions if you are using F25.
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zuill
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Post by zuill » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:17 pm

Also, make sure you pick the Mac set and not the Win set.

Zuill
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lynndavidnewton
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Post by lynndavidnewton » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:20 pm

All right, I've done all this.

I have the paid-for version of TGTools and the strong recommendation of a friend whose opinion I value.

I managed to find Jari's JW plug-ins, the 64-bit set for Macs, and got it to the right directory.
At least they show up in the Plug-ins menu when I open a file.

No idea what to do with these, but I value any advice given by experts.

I'm currently managing at least a half dozen mysteries while trying to render some of my old music.
The number will increase. While trying to also make a living and winterize my house. Ah me.
So little time.

Thanks as always.

I'll return to my tone clusters a bit later.

lynndavidnewton
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Post by lynndavidnewton » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:20 pm

Yep, got the Mac 64-bit set. Thanks for the reminder.

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:34 pm

The JW Change plugin has many sub tools. They can even be combined into one memorized operation.

For the clusters, I used the Notehead plugin (halfway down the list). There are many operations in there. I used the one to change the font, clicked apply, then used the one for Custom Notehead to change the noteheads to the cluster ones. I described my steps in an earlier post.

Zuill
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lynndavidnewton
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Post by lynndavidnewton » Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:06 pm

Zuill, thank you. I'll attempt to reproduce that process in an example page before attacking my main work.

I have a few tone clusters coming up.

Between you and me and the forum I no longer think too highly of tone clusters, but that's what I wrote at the time.

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:11 pm

I manage to play clusters often, whether the music calls for it or not. Clumsiness or fat fingers, I can't say. No special notation for that. I include the clusters as a bonus.

Anyway, the notation is manageable in Finale, at least, when it is needed.

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Vaughan
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Post by Vaughan » Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:29 pm

lynndavidnewton wrote:Between you and me and the forum I no longer think too highly of tone clusters...
I think a lot of pianists would have a hard time playing a cluster spanning that tenth (sub-contra A to contra C). I have large hands and I can only just reach it.
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lynndavidnewton
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Post by lynndavidnewton » Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:50 pm

Yep, I'm sure most players would have a tough time with that. It's not an easy piece!

I wrote the piece for someone who never complained about any of it. :-) Some people find a way to play pretty much anything.

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elbsound
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Post by elbsound » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:31 pm

I started a cluster plugin for JW Lua some time ago (for a project at that time), but as I never had cluster projects afterwards it somehow didn't really finish.
The plugin can turn tone cluster into either SMuFL cluster notation or Maestro square noteheads (Engraver would be easily implemented as it's the algorithm as SMuFl only different characters). Other features include cautionary start/end accidentals and automatic simplification of clusters and accidentals (Cbb as top note becomes A#). Another important feature which is not so easy to achieve manually was to maintain full playback compatibility: the plugin creates many invisible noteheads and accidentals and also adjusts the noteheads/accidentals horizontally if necessary.
Here is a demo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Taev9nOjR_E (first SMuFL notation, then Maestro)

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