major problem with complex tuples

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lynndavidnewton
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Finale Version: 25.5.0.259
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Post by lynndavidnewton » Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:22 pm

This problem is a bit lengthy, but I'm wondering if there is a bug in the latest version of Finale 25.5.0.259 for Mac. (On macOS 10.13.1 Open Sierra).

The problem I'm seeing comes up often in entering complex tuples. I tried to post about this last Friday but must have forgotten to add a subject or something because it never appeared on the list. So here it is again, with more information.

In the attachment (piano music), you can see that the rhythm is crazy in the left hand at the end of this otherwise mostly complete measure. The red is because it's entered at level 2, and there's a hidden half rest at the beginning in this measure whose meter is 4/4.
m47.jpg
m47.jpg (51.38 KiB) Viewed 5004 times
The rhythm *should* be relatively simple. The last two quarters are a 6-tuple (six eighths in space of four). Ignoring the flurry of grace notes, the rhythm sync with the the right hand, also a 6:4 tuple. There should be a quarter rest, the low A-flat quarter, and two eighths, the B-flat and an F ... *not* a dotted 32nd 8th and 128th rest!

I've entered this measure three different ways and it always ends up like this, even if I leave out the grace notes. I sent it to my brother, a cellist and composer running the same version of Finale on his Mac, and he gets the same thing.

I frequently get the problem in entering complex tuples, particularly when I have to split them between staves, of things not adding up right and rests getting pushed to the right. Some of it is cockpit error as I make mistakes and have to go back and fix things.

One workaround I've had some but not complete success with is to define the time signature to add an extra quarter or two until I get everything right and then delete the extra rest(s) and finally change the time signature to what it was supposed to be. This works more often than not.

I have another similar example but apparently the forum software does not allow me to upload more than one attachment per message?

Comments?


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zuill
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Post by zuill » Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:37 pm

There are often odd behaviors when ending a measure with any kind of tuplet. These issues are known by MM and they have yet to address the problem in the current version. The behaviors have been there since the beginning of time. What you get is dependent on the input method, though. One thing to try is turning off to check for extra notes.

Zuill
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Vaughan
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Post by Vaughan » Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:16 pm

This problem seems only to occur when entering notes using Simple Entry. It shouldn't happen but...
I've never had this problem when entering tuplets using Speedy. You might try changing your input method, at least when entering tuplets like this. What I would do in Speedy is pressing Alt-6 (to define the sextuplet), pressing 4 to enter an eighth rest, using an arrow key to move the caret back and then press 5 to change it into a quarter, then enter the other notes normally. Works for me every time.
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motet
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Post by motet » Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:28 pm

I did this with Speedy entry and Ctrl-1, rather than replacing notes. Other than the fact that tuplets are combersome in general in Finale, I had no trouble.

As an aside, mixing 6 in the space of 2 with 6 in the space of 4 might confuse your player. It's kind of hard from looking at that to know where the beats lie.
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Vaughan
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Post by Vaughan » Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:35 pm

I agree with Motet (except that I find entering the value of the tuplet and then changing it quicker than evoking the tuplet dialog). Since those tuplets in the second half of the measure span two beats, I'd tend to write them as triplets.
Vaughan

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motet
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Post by motet » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:37 am

I've just been experimenting in Simple entry entering tuplets. I found it to be buggy when it comes to replacing the rests that 9 or Alt-9 creates. Better to delete them first and then enter the notes.

I used the tuplet entry method
  • Enter first note
  • Press Alt-9 to define the tuplet
  • Replace resulting rests with desired notes
If you define a tuplet with the units the same, e.g. (6 EIGHTHS in the space of 4 EIGHTHS), then you can just enter eighth notes and they'll replace the rests generated.

But if you define it with differing units, e.g. (6 EIGHTHS in the space of 1 HALF) which should be the same as the above, you get eighth rests, but when you enter notes it generates extra rests which wind up outside the tuplet.

If the the length of the note you're entering doesn't match the rest you're replacing (whether or not the units matched in the definition), you get incorrect results.

Deleting the rests first seems to work even if the units are mixed.

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motet
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Post by motet » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:39 pm

And, what are those rests for, anyway?

lynndavidnewton
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Post by lynndavidnewton » Fri Nov 24, 2017 2:58 pm

I've just now gotten around to reading the half dozen or so responses to my question.

The idea to turn off the check for extra notes sounds option sounds reasonable. (Now I have to remember how to do that.) I assume turning that off tells Finale "I know what I'm doing" and that you know enough to delete extra notes when you're done. (Kind of like turning off a spelling checker, I guess.) I'll try that.

As for using Speedy Entry: Yeah, I should do that. The first problem is that I'm not yet proficient on Speedy Entry. In addition to being away from Finale for many years and still relearning a great deal, my main reason for that is some of the music I'm entering is quite difficult, with each measure having its problems such that there is really no "speedy" advantage in using Speedy Entry over Simple Entry, in which I can still use my MIDI controller keyboard to enter notes when I want. But at a rate of ten or fifteen minutes per measure, I haven't yet seen the need to do it. I can see the advantage to doing it with more traditional music, where there are sequences of rhythms of like value and general layout are a lot easier. I perceive that using Speedy Entry is probably a lot like playing an instrument in some respects: A few hours of direct practice using Bach Inventions or something would probably do me a world of good and get me over the hump.

Regarding questions about the notation itself, I know there are reasons to change some details. I probably won't be too fussy. The piece was written 56 years ago, won a big award at the time, has been performed a couple of times (Roger Shields, pianist -- you can look him up -- one of my closest friends at the time), and now I'm just in the process of transferring a lot of my old stuff to electronic form with Finale. I'm making numerous editorial changes as I go, but I'm trying not to be too fussy about it because my own musical thinking today is much different than it was then, and my purpose is not to rewrite the thing.

I do greatly appreciate all comments offered and take them to heart. Thank you very much.

Vaughan
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Post by Vaughan » Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:36 pm

lynndavidnewton wrote:... there is really no "speedy" advantage in using Speedy Entry over Simple Entry, in which I can still use my MIDI controller keyboard to enter notes when I want...
I get the impression that you have the wrong idea of what it means to use Speedy. I know the opinions here are pretty much equally divided between the two entry methods, but I just wanted to remark that you can 'still use [your] MIDI controller keyboard to enter notes when [you] want' in Speedy. There are basically two ways to enter notes in Speedy using a MIDI keyboard. One is to play a note and then to press the required number key for the length. The other is to press CapsLock and a number key which will then be remembered. Finale will wait until you play notes (in any speed and rhythm) and notate them all in that note value until you press a different number key. Very user-friendly and you'll never have problems entering tuplets!

A bit OT: interesting challenge, digitising and revising things you wrote 56 years ago, especially since your musical thinking has changed considerably in the meantime! I find it particularly fascinating when composers revise their own works and I spend a lot of time studying scores and manuscripts of Bach, Beethoven and pretty much anything else I can get my hands on. Even more OT: my father has kept journals for the last 65 years and he's going through pretty much the same process, digitising and revising them, many of which are wonderful, philosophical essays. I'm trying to convince him not to try to improve anything, or at least to keep copies of the originals, as his attitudes at the age of 86 often scarcely resemble those of his youth.

Good luck with your challenges!
Vaughan

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Tobias Giesen's plugins, full version, Robert Patterson plugins, Jari's plugins
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lynndavidnewton
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Post by lynndavidnewton » Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:04 pm

Vaughan, thanks for the advice. Yes, I know the basics of how to operate Speedy Entry. My point is that I'm entering music where not only are there very few cases of two or more consecutive notes being of the same rhythmic value, they are more often than not in different octave, in fact sometimes three or four octaves apart. (Think Boulez's Structures for Two Pianos, if you've ever seen that. Tough sledding, that piece.)

A quick view:
https://www.scribd.com/doc/92240141/Bou ... uctures-Ia

As for the Caps Lock key: I've had my Caps Lock disabled for pretty much the whole time I've ever used a computer. Probably the most annoying and useless key on the keyboard unless you're a COBOL programmer.

I have been a user of various forms of Emacs for text editing since the mid-eighties, in which the Control key is used constantly. Having it under my left pinkie ... where the Caps Lock is now located on most keyboards (it wasn't in the 1980s) was the most logical place to put it. So I've always remapped this.

On the Mac I've tried simply swapping the Control and Caps Lock keys, but for some reason this doesn't work. Therefore on the Mac keyboard Caps Lock is Control, and Control is simply a dead key.

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motet
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Post by motet » Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:13 pm

As I said, if you delete the rests that Alt-9 or 9 creates before you fill out the tuplet, there's no need to turn off "check for extra notes," which I find useful to check for mistakes while entering. If you mistakenly overstuff the measure it can lead to baffling results.

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