setting long strings of quasi grace notes
Moderators: Peter Thomsen, miker
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I need advice on a general approach to solve the problem of setting the system attached (and others like it).
I hope that's readable. The Forum places limits on image sizes in attachments.
I'm mostly concerned about getting in that long string of essentially free form grace notes (for lack of a better term). Can I do this without crushing them all together like Finale likes to do with actual grace notes? It's really not unlike cadenza-like free form sections you might see in Liszt and sometimes in Chopin and other composers.
As background:
The movement consists of about nine score pages of phrases of odd lengths such that if time signatures were inserted they would look very odd (such as 2/4 + 3/16 + 2/4 + 1/4 ... and worse). I have actually been inserting these as I'm typing in notes and rhythms so Finale has something to count against. In the end I will hide all time signatures in the movement.
In addition, most phrases (or gestures) end with a timed pause. In my original I represent this with a simple fermata and a largish number under it, but the fermata is not attached to anything but space. There's an example in the attached graphic.
This is a problem for Finale, too. I've been tacking a quarter rest on to each phrase and am putting in the fermatas over those, along with a number. The big problem is if I hide the rest or any note, then the articulation attached to it is hidden too. So I'm not sure how to accomplish that. What I want is to just plunk it in the middle between staves as shown in the example.
I recognize this is basically two questions in one.
Suggestions gratefully accepted.
Thanks.
I hope that's readable. The Forum places limits on image sizes in attachments.
I'm mostly concerned about getting in that long string of essentially free form grace notes (for lack of a better term). Can I do this without crushing them all together like Finale likes to do with actual grace notes? It's really not unlike cadenza-like free form sections you might see in Liszt and sometimes in Chopin and other composers.
As background:
The movement consists of about nine score pages of phrases of odd lengths such that if time signatures were inserted they would look very odd (such as 2/4 + 3/16 + 2/4 + 1/4 ... and worse). I have actually been inserting these as I'm typing in notes and rhythms so Finale has something to count against. In the end I will hide all time signatures in the movement.
In addition, most phrases (or gestures) end with a timed pause. In my original I represent this with a simple fermata and a largish number under it, but the fermata is not attached to anything but space. There's an example in the attached graphic.
This is a problem for Finale, too. I've been tacking a quarter rest on to each phrase and am putting in the fermatas over those, along with a number. The big problem is if I hide the rest or any note, then the articulation attached to it is hidden too. So I'm not sure how to accomplish that. What I want is to just plunk it in the middle between staves as shown in the example.
I recognize this is basically two questions in one.
Suggestions gratefully accepted.
Thanks.
- Michel R E
- Posts: 702
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- Finale Version: Finale 2012, 25, 26
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for the fermata, make it as an expression rather than an articulation.
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.
- Peter Thomsen
- Posts: 6601
- Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:47 pm
- Finale Version: Finale v27.4
- Operating System: Mac
Instead of entering all those 8ths as grace notes I would enter them as ordinary notes, and then perhaps resize the 8ths to grace note size.
To make room for the 8ths you will have to adjust the time signature.
You can hide the adjusted time signature.
Consider entering the 8ths as a hidden tuplet.
The slash across the “grace note” beam group can be added as an expression (the online manual describes how to do it).
To make room for the 8ths you will have to adjust the time signature.
You can hide the adjusted time signature.
Consider entering the 8ths as a hidden tuplet.
The slash across the “grace note” beam group can be added as an expression (the online manual describes how to do it).
Mac OS X 12.6.9 (Monterey), Finale user since 1996
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- Posts: 280
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- Finale Version: 25.5.0.259
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All good suggestions.
I did not realize that you could add a fermata as an expression.
I'll have to look for it. That would solve that problem just fine.
Which reminds me of a related problem:
Is there an 8va marking that applies just to the single note it's
attached to rather than extending until you type in loco? (And 8ba)
Surely there must be.
I'm asking this without looking carefully on my own first, but it did come
up in a score I did a few weeks ago and I got it wrong and resorted to
using loco (I was being impatient).
I'll go check that.
My confidence is growing again.
I did not realize that you could add a fermata as an expression.
I'll have to look for it. That would solve that problem just fine.
Which reminds me of a related problem:
Is there an 8va marking that applies just to the single note it's
attached to rather than extending until you type in loco? (And 8ba)
Surely there must be.
I'm asking this without looking carefully on my own first, but it did come
up in a score I did a few weeks ago and I got it wrong and resorted to
using loco (I was being impatient).
I'll go check that.
My confidence is growing again.
- Michel R E
- Posts: 702
- Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:16 pm
- Finale Version: Finale 2012, 25, 26
- Operating System: Windows
use the 8va marking from the smart shapes panel and simply apply it and stretch it only as far as the one note you wantlynndavidnewton wrote: Is there an 8va marking that applies just to the single note it's
attached to rather than extending until you type in loco? (And 8ba)
Surely there must be.
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.
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- Posts: 280
- Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:11 pm
- Finale Version: 25.5.0.259
- Operating System: Mac
Since asking I went out and tried looking again on my own and discovered that very solution.Michel R E wrote:use the 8va marking from the smart shapes panel and simply apply it and stretch it only as far as the one note you wantlynndavidnewton wrote: Is there an 8va marking that applies just to the single note it's
attached to rather than extending until you type in loco? (And 8ba)
Surely there must be.
Works fine.
However, it somehow feels like a lame solution.
C'est la vie. Now I can fix my previous score. Thank you.
- Michel R E
- Posts: 702
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Why does it feel like a "lame solution"?lynndavidnewton wrote: However, it somehow feels like a lame solution.
C'est la vie. Now I can fix my previous score. Thank you.
That's exactly what the tool is for, and that is its prime function in Finale.
To apply an 8va or 8ba you use that tool. it's always been the first tool one chooses, while any other solution has been a work-around.
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.
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- Posts: 280
- Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:11 pm
- Finale Version: 25.5.0.259
- Operating System: Mac
OK, not a problem. Just not used to it. I guess it just seems funny to use a stretchable smart tool to not stretch.Michel R E wrote:Why does it feel like a "lame solution"?lynndavidnewton wrote: However, it somehow feels like a lame solution.
C'est la vie. Now I can fix my previous score. Thank you.
That's exactly what the tool is for, and that is its prime function in Finale.
But when I think about it, it's the most obvious way to do it, isn't it?
Never mind me.
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That sounds like a perfectly good idea. However, I see that there is not a fermata in the library of expression marks, meaning I guess I have to lift one from somewhere and transfer it over to that sort of tool.Michel R E wrote:for the fermata, make it as an expression rather than an articulation.
I've never done that. So how can I take a symbol that is found in the palette of articulation marks (or from a font somewhere?) and move it into the expressions? Sorry if that's a naive question.
- motet
- Posts: 8226
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I suppose there could be an 8va articulation just like there is both a "tr" smart shape and a tr articulation. It's easily made (see below), but playback won't be correct. I think you'd need to add a hook (also doable) to have it make sense without "loco," so might as well use the shape unless you have dozens of these.
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I'm about to tackle this problem I asked about a couple of days ago.
I suppose a "hidden" tuplet is one without the number over (or under) the beam?
How do I hide that number?
One gotcha is that if I enter them as eighth notes, they will play with eighth notes.
I want them to play like grace notes, i.e., basically fast.
Does this mean to define them as some kind of strange tuplet, like 11 eighths in 9 32nds or something?
(And Finale won't lose its mind trying to cope with those numbers?)
I get most of this. One question:Peter Thomsen wrote:Instead of entering all those 8ths as grace notes I would enter them as ordinary notes, and then perhaps resize the 8ths to grace note size.
To make room for the 8ths you will have to adjust the time signature.
You can hide the adjusted time signature.
Consider entering the 8ths as a hidden tuplet.
The slash across the “grace note” beam group can be added as an expression (the online manual describes how to do it).
I suppose a "hidden" tuplet is one without the number over (or under) the beam?
How do I hide that number?
One gotcha is that if I enter them as eighth notes, they will play with eighth notes.
I want them to play like grace notes, i.e., basically fast.
Does this mean to define them as some kind of strange tuplet, like 11 eighths in 9 32nds or something?
(And Finale won't lose its mind trying to cope with those numbers?)
- Peter Thomsen
- Posts: 6601
- Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:47 pm
- Finale Version: Finale v27.4
- Operating System: Mac
You can do it with the (main) Tuplet Tool on the Main Tool Palette (not with the sub-tool on the Simple Entry Palette).lynndavidnewton wrote:… I suppose a "hidden" tuplet is one without the number over (or under) the beam?
How do I hide that number? …
Click on the first tuplet note to get the tuplet handle, then double-click the tuplet handle to get to the Tuplet Definition (or go via the context menu).
Set both Number and Shape to Nothing.
You can also use the Selection Tool:
To hide many tuplets in a selected region, use the utility.
Utilities menu > Change > Tuplets…
Yes, define them as some kind of weird tuplet.lynndavidnewton wrote:… One gotcha is that if I enter them as eighth notes, they will play with eighth notes.
I want them to play like grace notes, i.e., basically fast.
Does this mean to define them as some kind of strange tuplet, like 11 eighths in 9 32nds or something?
(And Finale won't lose its mind trying to cope with those numbers?)
And no, Finale will not loose its mind.
Let us not talk about what will happen to my mind, if I try to play the very same tuplet.
Mac OS X 12.6.9 (Monterey), Finale user since 1996