nested tuple problem

[lynndavidnewton]

Using latest Finale, Mac OS High Sierra ...

I write complicated music (or used to) with lots of broken tuples, but have rarely made use of nested tuples.

Now I have a measure (of piano music) where I cannot for the life of me get the nested tuple to work.

I've attached it as is. Never mind the wacky time signature. it will be hidden.
Also never mind the apparent rhythmic booboo at the end of the bar. Here it is:

Untitled.jpg (65.63 KiB) Viewed 6165 times

You see in the right hand a 16th triplet, 3 16ths in the space of 2 16ths.
(Followed by that other stuff.)

This aligns with the complicated-looking left hand part, where the first 16th triplet is a rest,
and the second is four 64th notes. However the third group, after the change to bass clef,
I need to put five 64ths in, not just four. That 5-tuple should add another A3 (bottom space
of the bass clef staff). (A#-D#-E-D-A)

But no matter what I did when I got to that A-sharp, the first note of
that group, I couldn't bring up the tuple definition pop-up. I've horsed with this for an hour
before coming begging for help.

I know this can be done, and is in fact fairly simple What basic technique am I failing to grasp?

Thanks.

[zuill]

Since I have no problem creating the nested tuplet, I guess we might need more information or an actual file.

Zuill

[ebiggs1]

All I can say is I am glad I don't have to play that. No matter what instrument it is for.

[lynndavidnewton]

Since I have no problem creating the nested tuplet, I guess we might need more information or an actual file.

Zuill

Zuill, that's exactly what I want.

Could you kindly tell me exactly what you click or press after entering the A# after the change to bass clef? I understand that that's where to bring up the tuplet definition pop-up, but I can't get it to appear.

I doubt an actual file would be of value. (I'm assuming you mean a .mus) because what I sent you I typed separately in a new file. You're looking at the whole thing. The point being that it's the same in the actual score I'm working on. BTW, it's the last measure of the movement.

This is another one of those things that if I make it work once, I'll be able to make it work on all the rest of the things like that that I do for the rest of my life.

[lynndavidnewton]

All I can say is I am glad I don't have to play that. No matter what instrument it is for.

ebiggs1, I can appreciate what you are saying. The tempo is actually quite slow here and it retards. This is the end of the movement.

The piece was written for a particularly pianist, who performed it twice and did a spectacular job of it. Parts of it are quite difficult but playable.

FWIW, my musical thinking has evolved quite a bit in the 53 years since I wrote it. I don't write stuff like that any more.

[motet]

Can pianists generally read so many ledger lines? You might consider 8va and 15ma.

[lynndavidnewton]

Can pianists generally read so many ledger lines? You might consider 8va and 15ma.

Depends on who the pianist is. The one I wrote it for was the most phenomenal sight-reader of music I've encountered in all my now 74 years of life. Reading music for him was like reading words to most people. Never seen anything like it.

Yes, the original score did use all those ledger lines. My process in this lengthy score has been to enter the notes and rhythms first, then add articulations, expression, slurs, and all the other glop. I've made some revisions in the process, correcting mistakes, simplifying a few rhythms, improving (I hope) what there is. But with this score the notes and rhythms are just the start. It'll probably take me another month of hard work to hammer this thing into what I want it to be. And in the process, yes, I will probably use some 8va and 8ba indications.

The short note values in the fragment you see (there's about three systems of this) are for visually aesthetic reasons more than anything. I wanted to achieve a certain look of density. But the tempo is slow.

About a year before I wrote this I wrote a four-movement string quartet in which the basic meters were in eighths, making it kind of black. I had been inspired by the Webern String Trio, still one of my favorite Webern pieces.

Some well-meaning critic pointed out it might be easier to play if I did it in quarters. Thinking he was right, when I made my first permanent version of the piece (using a music typewriter et al.), I wrote it in quarters. Biggest mistake I ever made in listening to the advice of someone else telling me how I should render my notation. For about 35 years I was dissatisfied with it. When I first got Finale in around 2002 (I think), one of the first old scores I attacked was that string quartet ... and I returned the meter to eighths. It looks so immensely better I can hardly imagine such a thing would make a difference.

I considered making a similar change on the segment that the fragment that this problem was taken from when I got to it. Then I remembered how sorry I was about doing that with the quartet many years ago. So I didn't. I'm sure anybody good enough to play this piece can figure out the rhythm. I wrote it that way on purpose. Why would I change it?

[Peter Thomsen]

… Some well-meaning critic pointed out it might be easier to play if I did it in quarters. Thinking he was right, when I made my first permanent version of the piece (using a music typewriter et al.), I wrote it in quarters. Biggest mistake I ever made in listening to the advice of someone else telling me how I should render my notation. For about 35 years I was dissatisfied with it. When I first got Finale in around 2002 (I think), one of the first old scores I attacked was that string quartet ... and I returned the meter to eighths. It looks so immensely better I can hardly imagine such a thing would make a difference …

Instead of changing the meter to quarters I would keep the meter in eighths, and then make some secondary beam breaks (= 16th beams and smaller).
Secondary beam breaks are done with the Special Tools Tool’s sub-tool Secondary Beam Break Tool.
You can do the secondary beam breaks in one measure, and then use the Copy Filter to copy only Secondary Beam Breaks to all the other measures.

[lynndavidnewton]

Since I have no problem creating the nested tuplet, I guess we might need more information or an actual file.

Zuill

Woowoo!

I'm happy to report that I got it. I had to use Speedy Entry. When I tried that it worked right off.

The nature of this music, bopping all over the place, is such that I'm still more comfortable typing it in with a mouse
using Simple Entry. I have a 3-octave keyboard attached to my computer in my office, which I bought just for note
entry. (Full size keyboard in my studio in the basement, but I have to unplug my laptop from a bunch of stuff and
drag it to the basement to use it for this kind of work.)

Thanks to all who took the trouble to respond. It means a lot to have the excellent support of this forum while
I'm getting myself up to speed (again).

I consider this case closed.

[motet]

Ah, good. I don't think you can even do nested tuplets in Simple entry, unless I'm mistaken. You have to resort to the non-note-entry Tuplet tool.

[lynndavidnewton]

So my problem was apparently one of failure to communicate combined with false assumptions!
My mistake was to assume that the process was the same for either entry method.
Long-suffering responders' mistake was to assume that I was using Speedy Entry.
Which I should have been doing.

This is a great relief to me because I was going nuts being frustrated with this problem, and now
I've solved it and have renewed resolve to become more fluent with Speedy Entry.
I just need more time.

Which reminds me of another problem that I'll post to the Beginner board list.

[zuill]

I entered the notes in Simple Entry. After entering the first 64th note of the quintuplet, I went to the Tuplet Tool, set up the definition for the quintuplet, then went back to Simple Entry to finish entering the other 4 notes.

Zuill

[motet]

Right--as I said, you need to use the separate tuplet tool, whereas in Speedy you can nest tuplets.

[lynndavidnewton]

I entered the notes in Simple Entry. After entering the first 64th note of the quintuplet, I went to the Tuplet Tool, set up the definition for the quintuplet, then went back to Simple Entry to finish entering the other 4 notes.

Zuill

Amazing. After all my frustration, I did it your way and it worked.

With a big HOWEVER.

I had to fuss with clicking things three or four times. I'm sure there's a precise sequence, like having a secret handshake or being able to say "shibboleth", but I eventually stumbled on it. If I did it once I can do it again. And I'm talking about Simple Entry.

When I type the first note of the 5 and then hit the Tuplet Tool, the note value deselects. Or maybe it's the other way around. I forget. And I think you have to double click on something -- whether the note or the Tuplet Tool or the note value (64th) I can't remember. One of these times RSN I'll learn it well enought to internalize it. Thanks again.