fermata with number centered on nothing

[lynndavidnewton]

I need to put a fermata in between two piano staves, one
that is attached to nothing musical (i.e. not over a note or
a rest). And I want to be able to center a number below the
fermata.

It *could* be attached to a rest, but there are problems
with that. (See below.)

Notice the JPEG example. The second measure is similar to
what I want.

almost.jpg (30.57 KiB) Viewed 4170 times

To create this I hid the fourth quarter of the measure in
the treble staff. I attached the fermata to the bottom staff
and lifted it. Then I slid a number under it, which I
created as a text object (in Calibria 18 point bold).

One problem with this is that if I hide the quarter rest in
the bass staff, the articulation (fermata) disappears, too.
Bummer. It might almost solve the problem if I could hide
the rest.

Another problem is that I would want the time signature here
to be 3/4, not 4/4. The movement is structured as a number
of phrases separated by timed pauses. This problem is not
insurmountable because it's my intention, once everything is
correct in the movement, to hide all the time signatures ...
plus about half of the bar lines.

I've simply added a quarter to each measure that has that
and added rests as a placeholder for the time being.

There are about 35 of these to deal with in the movement, so
I need a good solution.

One way to handle the pauses is to make them all 1/4 bars
and hide the initial bar line and time signature. (Can I
hide some time signatures and not others? I know I can do
that with bar lines.)

Also, using a text object (a number) centered under a
fermata seems clunky. And if the two are not attached to
anything or each other, there could be some drift.

If I create something special for this, I'd probably also
need to specify things for playback.

I could attach a JPEG of a fragment of the original, which
pictures well what I want, if it would help. (I no longer
have the manuscript. The "original" was created with a music
typewriter in 1964.)

So does anyone know how to attack this problem?

[motet]

You can make an expression consisting of the fermata and number. It will attach to a beat, and you can give it a vertical offset to place it between staves. That should survive hiding the rests.

[motet]

The text in an expression doesn't seem to have a justification setting to center it (as evidenced below), so I think you'll want to do the number as a separate expression.

To put a fermata in an expression, use 24-point Maestro and type the letter U.

[zuill]

A Shape Expression would be better.

Zuill

[motet]

I'm not sure I agree. It's true that you could then do it with one expression, but I find the Shape Designer difficult to use, and I suspect Lynn has never waded in there. You could instead have one fermata text expression, and a set of number text expressions, both set to center over the note. You'd have to then apply two expressions each time, though, it's true.

Edit: It looks like in the shape designer there's no provision for justification of stacked text, and in fact no way to mix fonts in a single selection, so you'd have to eyeball things, and each number could potentially have a different width, depending on font.

[lynndavidnewton]

I've been busy exploring the world of creating expressions and have been by and large successful.
I was inclined to post a lengthy reply, mainly to assure those who have taken the trouble to respond
that I've been hard at work trying to apply what I've learned. Although I have a million questions,
I'll try to keep this simple.

I wound up going with creating expressions for a fermata and the numbers 1-6.
(Motet is right that the expression is foreign territory to me, although I did manage to
create and play with one stretchable shape, so now I know that option exists in the
future.)

Expressions, of course can generally be dragged around. What I took some time trying to figure
out by trial and error the positioning factors, particularly because what I want is really a
two-step operation. What I want to do is temporarily set a quarter note (G3) in the bass clef
staff, select the Expressions tool, and then double click right in the middle of the top
staff line and select first the fermata expression, and then clicking as close as I can eyeball
it to be the same on the number. This should be close enough for most purposes, especially
since there is never more than two on a system. (Then I make the G a rest and hide it.)

My first question is whether there is a way to figure this out precisely. Using the grid
and ruler is not a help. (The space between all staves in all systems is 1.3 inches,
expanded from the default because there is so much going on between them.) Given
that I can drag them wherever I want, I suppose this is not that big a deal, but I prefer
calculated precision to eyeball correctness.

The second question is whether there is a way to create expressions with a sort of
invisible wall around them to force the music spacing to avoid crashing into them?
I gather that can't be done.

These combo-expressions are an important component of the movement I'm working on,
so I experimented with making them them BIGGER, 36 point for the fermata and 24 point
for the numbers (the next available size in each font). This works fine, but when I
exported/imported these expressions and tried dropping one into a file, I see that's really
too big, so I'll go back to my test file and redesign them.

Questions remain, but things are progressing. Thanks as always.

[motet]

No need to eyeball anything or use a grid. The expression has horizontal positioning parameters that will center it over the beat it's attached to.

For the vertical position, experiment with values for XX below to get it where you want. You can use a different value for the fermata and the numbers.

Once set up, you should be able to apply them quickly with no manual adjustment.

[lynndavidnewton]

No need to eyeball anything or use a grid. The expression has horizontal positioning parameters that will center it over the beat it's attached to.

For the vertical position, experiment with values for XX below to get it where you want. You can use a different value for the fermata and the numbers.

Once set up, you should be able to apply them quickly with no manual adjustment.

Yes, I've been playing with this. It seems to be working well enough that I'm going to go with what I've got.
However, there's something that I must not understand. Well, two things.

The numbers seem to be decent enough, but if I put in fermatas on six notes in a row, the
vertical alignment is not absolutely the same. See the sample screen grab:

timedpauses.jpg (105.24 KiB) Viewed 4093 times

That weird little horizontal line on the right between staves is just something I stuck
in there to judge the height of the fermata and number with.

Above is the Expression Designer's Positioning page. I don't know what those choices in the dropdown
menu mean, but I didn't change the definition between fermatas in the music below. I assume those
choices are relevant to where it gets put.

At this point it's probably irrelevant. I'll probably wind up nudging things into place no matter what.

What I would like to see is some kind of a popup that shows up when I am using the arrow keys
to nudge whatever is nudgeable that shows me some coordinates, whether in pixels, centimeters,
inches, points, or whatever seems most appropriate. Then I could have something I could write down
and use as a parameter value in the Positioning tab of the Expression Designer.

My next worry is making sure I have enough horizontal space. The very first measure of this movement
has a clef change sitting smack on top of a quarter rest. And there's no room to move it. I'm surprised
Finale even allows it. But I've thought of a new way to experiment with that.

[motet]

Don't use "vertical click position," but rather, read and follow my instructions. As the name would imply, vertical click position depends on where you click and thus is not precise.

[lynndavidnewton]

Don't use "vertical click position," but rather, read and follow my instructions (then you will not have to ask twice). As the name would imply, vertical click position depends on where you click and thus is not precise.

Admonishment noted. Sure enough, the option to choose is in the graphic.
Everything appears to be working now.

This problem is a major burden off my back. Thanks for the help.