Alternative clarinet transposition

[Vaughan]

There's a section in Carmen which is in E-flat but it uses an A clarinet, and the key signature for the clarinet in this section is three sharps. I thought of using B-flat clarinet for this section but it needs to switch back to A later and then I'll just have the same problem. What's the best way of getting Finale to do notate this section in three sharps instead of six flats? An independent key signature? Staff Style?

[Peter Thomsen]

There's a section in Carmen which is in E-flat but it uses an A clarinet, and the key signature for the clarinet in this section is three sharps …

If I understand you correctly, the section is in Eb minor, right?

… What's the best way of getting Finale to do notate this section in three sharps instead of six flats? An independent key signature? Staff Style?

I would use a custom staff style that changes the staff transposition from A to Bbb:

Interval: 1

Key Alter: 9

[Vaughan]

No, that's the curious thing. The section is in E-flat major, but the A clarinet has three sharps in its time signature instead of 6 flats.

[N Grossingink]

I'm not sure I'm following the scenario fully, but I'd set the staff to have an independent key signature. Then, set the key to 3 sharps and transpose the notation as necessary. Playback will probably be wrong and I don't know how this works in Linked Parts.

N.

[ebiggs1]

Can't you just use the 'Change Instrument' to Clarinet in A ? Then change instrument back to Bb ?

Is 6 flats the problem? If the key is Eb a clarinet in A is going to play 6 flats. At least to my thinking!

[Vaughan]

Here's a screen shot of part of the section. The clarinet in A (and trumpet in A, as well) have three sharps instead of six flats.

Carmen.png (128.74 KiB) Viewed 5983 times

[motet]

It was not uncommon in 19th century opera to simplify clarinet key signatures and use accidentals where needed. If you want to retain that here, give it an independent key signature (I would use a staff style on the section in question) and set the key signature to six sharps, which will work out to three for A clarinet. Playback will be correct.

I have made an arrangement of this; I let the clarinets and trumpet have six flats. Unless you have a good reason to retain the old notation, I would do that. The players can handle six flats (maybe put cautionaries on the Cb's) and you'll do whoever reads the score a favor. If you would like six sharps instead of six flats, apply the staff transposition Peter mentions.

[Vaughan]

I think you're right. This is kind of what I was planning anyway. They're good players and shouldn't have a problem with 6 flats. Thanks everyone!

[Vaughan]

Curiouser and curiouser! Anyone have an idea why, in this section of Carmen in C major (more or less), the B-flat clarinet is notated in E-flat major? All it does is require extra accidentals compared to notating it with two sharps, which is what I'd do.

Carmen 2.png (143.2 KiB) Viewed 5911 times

[motet]

I don't think there's a good reason, and the three flats are indeed meaningless. My guess is that originally the switch from A to Bb clarinet was have to occurred at the upcoming key change to Ab "Tempo I" at measure 33 and then it was decided there was more time to switch earlier and they left the three flats and changed the notes. Or perhaps they didn't want to clutter the part with a rather meaningless change to two sharps. When I did this though I changed keys at the double-bar "Moderato" at measure 7.

That passage is not really in C major, but rather modulating through a bunch of different tonalities. You'll notice that nowhere does the clarinet part rely on one of those flats (a lone Bb has the flat written in), and had it switched to two sharps (like I did), several accidental naturals would have been required. So it's really written as if it were "keyless."

[motet]

I'll add that a conductor seeing that key signature (without the "in Bb") would think the clarinet was in A, so I would not replicated it.

[Vaughan]

Good points, Motet. Thanks! I realise that section wanders, tonally, so notating it without a key signature at all might be a good option. In any case, my score marks the transposing instruments quite clearly.

[motet]

That's good. The score you provided excerpts from is quite maddening, especially with respect to horns.

I also have the Alkor (Oeser) score, which retains the three flats, for what it's worth.

[Vaughan]

I know. Fortunately someone typed the horn transpositions into the score I'm using at regular intervals, but one still has to keep paging back to be sure. Pff! I'm arranging it for 2 flutes (+ piccolo), oboe, clarinet, bassoon, horn, trumpet, two trombones, harp, strings (3+3+2+1+1) and percussion. What was your orchestration?

[motet]

There's one place in that score where horns in two different transpositions are written on the same staff.

Mine is 2d2,1d1,2,1 / 2,1,1,0 / harp, timpani & percussion, strings.