Horn Transposition

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uncompositor
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Post by uncompositor » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:07 pm

Hello,

I have a horn in F part that I would like for it to display a fifth higher than sounding. I unchecked from Document/Display in Concert Pith and it now sounds exactly the way I want it and it is written a fifth higher.

However, now a G/em signature with one sharp appears on the clef, but I would like the score to appear without key signatures. I tried with the Key Signature Tool right-clicking a measure and selecting C Major to remove the sharp but it still stays there. How can I remove the sharp sign,while the instrument still sounding a fifth lower than written?

This is a file I imported from Finale 2012, but now working on it on V25.

Thanks in advance.


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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:15 pm

If I understand you correctly, the document displayed correctly (a fifth higher than sounding, key signature of C major), and played back correctly in Finale 2012, right?

But somehow something went wrong when the document was converted to the .musx file format, right?

I suggest that you attach a (small) sample of the original Finale 2012 .mus document here, for the gurus to examine.
We do not need the music.
An empty sample document is enough.
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zuill
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Post by zuill » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:21 pm

The transposition for Horn in F is a fifth higher than written, and so is the key signature. Since the Key is C, the Horn part is in the Key of G., which is a 5th higher than C. There are a couple of ways to not show the key signature. You probably want to explore doing the transposition as Chromatic instead of with a Key Signature. The other way is to check the option to hide the signature and show all accidentals. If the concert key is C, then either works. If not, then the second way is better.

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uncompositor
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Post by uncompositor » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:13 pm

I would still like for the horn to sound a fifth below during playback. My issue is that whenever I enter an F note, finale assumes it is an F-sharp.

How can I still the horn play a fifth below during playback (in other words the horn is in written pitch), but for F to be natural whenever I enter it into Finale?

I checked the option to hide the signature and show all accidentals and it hid the G/em key, but Finale still assumes any F entered into Finale will be sharp.

Would using Chromatic instead of with a Key Signature as you mentioned work for this issue? If so, where do I select that?

I have attached a Finale file. Thank you!
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example-tues.musx
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zuill
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Post by zuill » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:18 am

Does it look correct in Concert View? Are there B naturals in concert view? If so, in order to get that, the Horn plays F#.

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motet
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Post by motet » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:26 am

This issue is that in C major, the horn is in G major and so F is sharp. If you don't have other instruments, change the key to F major and forget about "hide key signature and show accidentals," which is half-baked, as you've discovered.

If you do have other instruments, then give the horn an independent key signature in its staff attribute and set its key to F major (which will result in no key signature given the transposition).

uncompositor
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Post by uncompositor » Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:30 am

I do have other instruments — therefore I will do the latter. How do I give the horn an independent key signature?

I selected the Staff Tool - Edit Staff Attributes but could not figure out how to set it's key to F major.

Thank you!

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:52 am

I guess I'm a bit confused. If the concert pitch is to be B, then horn needs to play F#. What is the issue here? Maybe I need more info. If I give the Horn an F, i will sound as a Bb. That doesn't appear to be what the concert view shows.

Someone please clarify things here. There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding about written vs. playback pitch.

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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:33 am

uncompositor,

Take a look at the attached Finale document.
Is this what you need?
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motet
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Post by motet » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:48 am

I don't see anything about a concert B natural, Zuill--perhaps he or she wants a Bb.

The issue is that when you use QWERTY Simple Entry and type an F, an F# appears. Or if you click on the F line, an F# appears. Perhaps this is handy in concert C major, but it's disconcerting when there's no key signature visible and you do in fact want an F natural.

Things are not much better with MIDI entry, which sometimes results in an enharmonic error. See this discussion from the old forums, which I think explains the issue better:

https://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=5&m=462908

I have been using the independent-key-signature-of-F method for more than a decade. It's only drawback is that when you copy music to or from another staff it transposes it and it must be transposed back. I was hoping to switch to the new "hide key signature and show accidentals" when it was announced, but they blew it.
Last edited by motet on Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by motet » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:53 am

Peter's chromatic-transposition solution will work if the concert key is C major--perhaps that's the case here, and I think it's a better solution if so. But any other key will result in a key signature for the horn (and bizarrely so--if the violin has two sharps in the key signature, the F horn will have two sharps!).

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:50 pm

The original post says it sounds as desired. So, that means the B natural, as seen in concert view, is the correct pitch. So, if one puts and F instead of an F#, then it won't play as desired. That is why I ask for the answer as to what the desired concert pitch is. Hiding the F# while concert pitch is B may be what is wanted for a look, but when a live horn player reads the part, the composer will get a surprise, for sure.

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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:23 pm

motet wrote:Peter's chromatic-transposition solution will work if the concert key is C major--perhaps that's the case here, and I think it's a better solution if so. But any other key will result in a key signature for the horn (and bizarrely so--if the violin has two sharps in the key signature, the F horn will have two sharps!).
I could be wrong here, but I think the answer is in the very first post:
uncompositor wrote:… I would like the score to appear without key signatures …
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zuill
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Post by zuill » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:38 pm

In the file, the Key chosen is C. Also, the option is checked to hide the signatures and show all accidentals. Keyless also could have been chosen.

Whatever the approach, despite the behavior of note entry, one can get the correct result that is needed. If Finale puts an F# and an F is wanted, just lower the pitch with the - sign. Fortunately, Finale now allows you to hear the correct concert pitch when in transposed view, so let the ear be the guide and fix the entry to match the needed pitch.

So, maybe Finale should have an option to have note entry disregard the key signature or desired written to concert pitch relationship. I've heard, over the years, complaints when the entered note does not reflect the key (or in this case implied key). So, it would have to be an option. But then, we would get complaints that Finale is not working correctly should this feature be on and the user not be aware of it.

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motet
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Post by motet » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:21 pm

Peter Thomsen wrote:
motet wrote: I could be wrong here, but I think the answer is in the very first post:
uncompositor wrote:… I would like the score to appear without key signatures …
You may be right. I thought perhaps that was referring to the horn part. As I said, chromatic transposition is indeed the better way to go in that case.

Zuill, I'm coming from a world of pieces with key signatures but key-signatureless horn and timpani parts, where I work things out on paper before entering into Finale, but I guess I disagree with you that having accidentals implied by the underlying key signature is a good thing. To me entering an F and having it come out an F# is like playing an F on the instrument and having an F# pop out. If a key signature is not shown, then there isn't one! (This is even more true in keyless music, if that's what uncompositor's is; fortunately there's "chromatic transposition," as you pointed out.) And a concert Bb is not uncommon in the key of C, where would not show a natural sign on the F in a horn part.

Do have a look at that thread from the old site if you want.

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Post by zuill » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:52 pm

Well, I did mention that maybe there should be an option to have the entered note not be affected by shown or hidden key signature. It seems that would be a simple programming task, but I might be wrong. MakeMusic, after many years, reprogrammed Finale to play the concert pitch upon entering in Transposed view. Now, many are asking for that to be a selectable option, instead of just one way of outcome. I think options are better. So, maybe an option to have the visible note be entered, rather than the accidental according to the underlying key signature. That would avoid using an Independent signature and then using the concert key of F.

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motet
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Post by motet » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:56 pm

I would love it!

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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:19 pm

zuill wrote:… MakeMusic, after many years, reprogrammed Finale to play the concert pitch upon entering in Transposed view. Now, many are asking for that to be a selectable option, instead of just one way of outcome …
A little Off Topic, I know, but:

Am I missing something here?
I thought that {playing the Concert Pitch during entering in Transposed View}
was a selectable option, not “just one way of outcome”.

I am talking about this option:

MIDI/Audio menu > Device Setup > Transpose MIDI On Input
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zuill
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Post by zuill » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:21 pm

No. That doesn't affect Simple or Speedy entry from the computer keyboard. That only affects entry from a MIDI keyboard.

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