Finale Forum

I thought i had asked this before, but I can't find it on here; might have been on the old MM forum.

Situation is: I have an 4/2 time signature and need to place fermatas over empty measures. Finale will not allow me to simply enter a whole rest and pretend the measure is complete; Finale will add the extra whole rest to complement the missing beats. I do not know of a way to create a tuplet that consists of one whole rest in the time of two whole rests (without Finale "correcting" things, that is: getting rid of the freshly created tuplet and do whatever it wants to do).

Finale doesn't even allow to create tuplets with whole notes or rests. At best I create a tuplet of two halve notes in the time of four halve notes, change the notes into rests and replace the first halve rest with a whole rest and make the tuplet not show. Only then I have a visual whole rest that fills out the measure. I can then place a fermata over it, but can't copy and paste that to other staves, because Finale will again delete what I created and replace that with a breve rest — not at all what I wanted. There are far too many staves and far too many fermatas in this piece to perform that whole process one measure at a time.

Is there a way to create such a default whole rest with a fermata? I can, of course, create an expression that I place over the default whole rest (and that's what I resorted to, for now), but with Finale constantly spacing and respacing elements, that expression will not stay in place. Plus, when extracting parts, I will have to manually break in every single part that particular measure from the preceding and following measures to have the measure with the fermata visible.

Whatever I can do is cumbersome at best. So any help is highly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

This works for me:

Create a whole note as a tuplet of {2 Halves in the space of 4 Halves}.
Let the tuplet display Nothing for Number and Shape.

Add a fermata on the whole note.

Turn the whole note into a whole rest.

By The Way:
In the time signature of 4/2 it is standard practice to use a breve rest as a {Default Whole Measure Rest}.

You probably already have read this thread about the topic:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=20983

Other than not using the "standard" breve rest as suggested, what's wrong with the following?
Apply to any measure or measure stack the "Change to Real Whole Rests" plug-in and then apply the articulation Fermata wherever you want, and it's centered on the rest (also in the parts). At least that's how it works for me.

Thank you for your response.
Yes, that's what I initially did and it works for one single measure on one stave (as I had hoped to having described properly, sorry for failing), but that is not copiable. In an orchestral work with lots of individual parts and many fermatas that's a horror to even think of having to do manually for every single occurrence.

Btw, as far as I'm concerned, a whole rest is the default rest for a whole measure in any time signature. I have no text book (I have a master in musicology) or score (I own thousands orchestral scores) that suggests otherwise.

mmike wrote: ↑

Wed May 25, 2022 12:33 pm

Apply to any measure or measure stack the "Change to Real Whole Rests" plug-in and then apply the articulation Fermata wherever you want, and it's centered on the rest (also in the parts). At least that's how it works for me.

I'll do that. Thanks for the suggestion. Downside is, all these measures will show up as incomplete when checking the score for note duration, but that's something I will have to live with, I'm afraid.

What about changing the character for a breve to a "normal" whole rest?

... a whole rest is the default rest for a whole measure in any time signature.

I agree. Finale should have a provision to do this built in. Of course there is a lot it should do but doesn't.

miker wrote: ↑

Wed May 25, 2022 1:52 pm

What about changing the character for a breve to a "normal" whole rest?

Finale doesn't center such a breve rest in the measure; otherwise, that's a great idea. I have a vague memory of some plug-in or setting that will center things in a measure, though.

If you don't want to live with incomplete measures by using a real whole rest in 4/2, you could do the fermata as an expression, which does copy. Rather than using "center between barlines," use the positioning shown below. The -16e is derived from Document Options/Notes and Rests/Space Before Music divided by 2. With such an expression, though, you'll need to set the measure attribute "break a multimeasure rest" on the measures where you use it.

Thanks for your input, miker and motet.

Placing an expression above the default whole rest is what I'm doing now, as said near the end of my post. The positioning and break a multimeasure rest options though are very welcome, motet — thanks. Hadn't thought of them. Only set back indeed is the fact that all these measures will come up when checking the score for duration, but okay, suppose I can't have the cake and eat it too.

A while ago I wrote a JW Lua script to look at a stack of measures, and everywhere there was an empty measure, insert a whole rest with a fermata. I use it all the time. It could probably be modified to create one of Peter's rest tuplets, but I'm a Lua novice and I doubt if I could do it. Really sexy would be to look at the key signature and automatically make the appropriate tuplet. It would also solve the case where you put a whole rest in a 3/4 measure, then accidentally visit it with Speedy or Simple entry and trigger the "too many beats" warning.

Any volunteers?

motet wrote: ↑

Wed May 25, 2022 4:05 pm

miker wrote: ↑

Wed May 25, 2022 1:52 pm

What about changing the character for a breve to a "normal" whole rest?

Finale doesn't center such a breve rest in the measure; otherwise, that's a great idea. I have a vague memory of some plug-in or setting that will center things in a measure, though.

I remembered: full TG Tools, Modify->Shift has an option to center notes in a measure, so using Mike's idea of changing the double whole note rest to be the same as the whole rest character, you can then center it with TG Tools. If the measure width later changes, though, you need to run the plug-in again. Also, a measure containing such a rest is wider than an empty measure by default.

Jay Emmes wrote: ↑

Wed May 25, 2022 12:43 pm

Btw, as far as I'm concerned, a whole rest is the default rest for a whole measure in any time signature. I have no text book (I have a master in musicology) or score (I own thousands orchestral scores) that suggests otherwise.

A breve (double whole) rest has been the standard convention for time signatures such as 4/2 and 3/1 from the advent of barring to the present day. Baerenreiter's recently revised Neue Bach Ausgabe edition continues to use them, e.g. in the Symbolum Niceum of B minor mass. They're in Vaughan Williams' Mass in G minor, and in major 20th century series like the Deutsche Denkmaler Tonkunst. (Granted, you're more likely to see 4/2 in editions of Early Music.)

Elaine Gould instructs the use of breve rests 'for all time signatures greater than 4/2 or 8/4' (p.160). Ted Ross also has "the exception would be measures in 4/2 and 8/4 time, which use a double whole rest.." (p. 173). Gardner Read acknowledges the practice, at least.

But yes: the fact that Finale still makes such a hash of something as basic as putting fermatas on empty bars is shocking.

Yes, I did read the discussion, but as I said, I can't find any text book or score that confirms this. I strongly disagree with Gould and Ross (not the only thing on which I disagree with them) and see no reason why a breve rest should be used for a single measure full rest of whatever length. And I have no intention of ever using it either.

Besides, it's prone to be confusing. Why would one use a whole rest for anything up to 4/2, cq. 8/4, but a breve for anything greater than that? All the more confusing when a breve rest is also used to indicate a two measure rest in any time signature in parts (as often as not with a "2" above the multi measure rest).

Granted, one can argue whether the whole rest is the most fortunate symbol to have been chosen, since it otherwise represents a defined duration, but the use of one symbol for any empty measure of whatever duration makes sense and will never be confusing.

Jay Emmes wrote: ↑

Thu May 26, 2022 10:07 am

I can't find any text book or score that confirms this

Apart from the ones with which you disagree!

There are all kinds of inconsistencies in notation. As illustrated in the other thread, I find it confusing when a whole rest is 4 beats in one bar, and then 2 beats in the next.

It remains a widely used convention, and certainly something that Finale should accommodate.

BuonTempi wrote: ↑

Thu May 26, 2022 10:48 am

There are all kinds of inconsistencies in notation. As illustrated in the other thread, I find it confusing when a whole rest is 4 beats in one bar, and then 2 beats in the next.

Why should that be confusing? In an empty measure there could be any rest symbol, from whole to larger, without causing uncertainty, or making you 'forget' the time signature. I hope you don't suggest using a half rest for a 2/4 empty measure?

An empty measure doesn't even need a rest symbol at all (a practice used by some new composers).

How does Dorico handle whole-measure rests in 4/2?

Because my brain goes "whole rest: OK, that's 4 beats. Another one. That's four beats. Another one: that's four.. oh, no it's two, I should have come in."

In 2/4, I see a whole rest, and it's always 2 beats. It's never used in any other context.

Certainly, I'm more familiar with seeing breve rests than not in these meters.

The more I learn about notation, the more I come to realise that there are as many standards and conventions as there are countries, publishers, genres and sub-genres; and the idea that's it's a common universal language seems to fall down!

John Ruggero wrote: ↑

Thu May 26, 2022 11:34 am

How does Dorico handle whole-measure rests in 4/2?

There's an option to have breves or not, for those time sigs.

Breve whole measure rests in the manuscript, the old Breitkopf and Haertel Complete works and the New Bach Complete works of Bach's B minor Mass:

BuonTempi wrote: ↑

Thu May 26, 2022 11:39 am

The more I learn about notation, the more I come to realise that there are as many standards and conventions as there are countries, publishers, genres and sub-genres; and the idea that's it's a common universal language seems to fall down!

One 'convention', if you like, is historical accuracy, where breve rests seem more appropriate in old times 2/1 alla breve.
More disturbing I find 'editors' who get the meter wrong - 4/4 with halved note values, 4/2 with "original" values etc.

Anders Hedelin wrote: ↑

Thu May 26, 2022 11:04 am

An empty measure doesn't even need a rest symbol at all (a practice used by some new composers).

FWIW (not much maybe) in my numerous manuscript fair copies (as well as in my still continuing MS sketches) from the 1950s until my acquiring Finale in 2001, I always left empty bars empty of any rests in full scores, but tended to fill them with semibreve (whole) rests in parts.

I always left empty bars empty of any rests in full scores

How do you actually do that? Is there a global way to recognize all empty measures (with real or default whole rests) to not show rests (on the screen or for printing only?) If not, I'd think that it would be a very cumbersome procedure for a whole orchestral score.

mmike wrote: ↑

Thu May 26, 2022 5:47 pm

…How do you actually do that? …

It is “a staff thingy”:
By default the option {Display Rests in Empty Measures} is selected, but you can de-select it.

Let me rephrase it: whether it is or is not convention to write a breve rest for a whole measure rest in anything above 4/2, cq. 8/4, I think it's a dumb convention that needs to be abolished asap. And if I would happen to be the first one (but I'm not) to abolish this convention, so be it.

There is no argument that I can think of (nor can Gould and Ross), other than the supposed convention) to support the use of two different symbols for a whole measure rest and I see and have given strong arguments against it. That's why I will never use any other symbol for a whole measure rest than the whole rest.

I would advocate the use of no symbol in an empty rest, but understand why this could be confusing as well before the computerised music notation (when manuscripts were actually written by hand). A totally empty measure might just as well be a measure forgotten to be filled, whereas a centred rest at least makes clear that the measure at hand is supposed to be empty. Using musical notation software brings back the danger of possibly "forgotten" measures by filling them with a rest by default.

As said before, one can argue about the use of a symbol that already has a defined duration, but at least it pays off to be consequent in the use of a symbol. And as far as I'm concerned, one symbol (instead of two) that covers all occasions with the same meaning: an empty measure.

I don't think this is even controversial, but I agree with you. It's not germane now what they wrote in the Renaissanse.

If you consider the traditional multimeasure rests in picture below, the whole rest in 4/2 makes perfect sense--one wouldn't use the same symbol for a 1-bar rest and a 2-bar rest. Also, there's no no 5-, 6-, or 7-beat rests for other meters. I don't think putting a whole rest plus a quarter rest in an empty 5/4 bar would look good.

It is “a staff thingy”

Aha, indeed, thanks! (the one place where I didn't think to look)
One thing to remember, though - it only works on measures that have default whole rests. If you apply that staff attribute after having worked on a score and have some real whole rests, you have to first change them to default rests.
(never a dull moment working with Finale ...)