Ottoman Music in Finale - Key Signatures and Accidentals

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Ottoman Music in Finale - Key Signatures and Accidentals

Postby mtkouti » Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:15 pm

Hi,

I have been trying, unsuccessfully, to get a complete answer from Finale tech support on how to use Ottoman Key Signatures and Accidentals when working with a score in Finale.

They have explained how to switch the fonts for Key Signatures and Accidentals to the special Turkish True Type Fonts that I have, but will not explain to me how to actually apply them to a score.

The two fonts are: SERDON (for the special Ottoman key signatures), and TSM (for the special accidentals).

Can someone here please explain how to apply these to a score? I'm sure anyone writing in Arabic notation would have a similar procedure, just different accidentals from the Ottoman school.

Once the fonts are chosen for keys and accidentals respectively, how do I apply them?

The online help manuals have not been clear at all for this specific question, so I would appreciate all the help I can get from the forum members.
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Re: Ottoman Music in Finale - Key Signatures and Accidentals

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Ottoman Music in Finale - Key Signatures and Accidentals

Postby Peter Thomsen » Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:26 pm

We need more information.

You are talking about "special Turkish True Type Fonts".

Does "special Turkish True Type Fonts" mean that you are going to use the turkish key signature system where the octave is divided, not into 12 steps, but rather into 53 steps, approximating the interval of "frequency ratio 3:2" (= perfect fifth) as 31/53 of "frequency ratio 2:1" (= octave)?

The manual's chapter about non-standard key signatures is not very well written.
Don't feel bad about yourself if you are having problems understanding that chapter.

Peter
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Postby mtkouti » Sat Sep 06, 2008 12:13 am

Hi Peter,

Yes, I will be using the Ottoman makam (modal) system which theoretically is Pythagorean (53 steps/octave) but practically speaking has 24 steps/octave. With each whole step divided into 9 komas, and the intervals between E-F and B-C counted as 4 komas, we use only the 1st, 4th, 5th, 8th, & 9th komas in Ottoman music.

However, all I am interested is writing and printing scores using these key signatures and accidentals, not playback. So if some adjustments need to be made for correct playback, I'm not really interested in them.

What concerns me is just being able to score and print sheet music using the correct key signatures and accidentals, and I will happily play them back myself. :)

This is what tech support has shown me so far:

To summarize:

1. Go to Document >> Document Options
2. Select "Fonts" on the left
3. On the right side of the screen, you can now select the fonts you wish to use for the different types of musical symbols (Accidentals, Key, etc)
4. Now that you have defined the font you wish to use, you can click on "Accidentals" on the left to choose the characters to use for each accidental
5. Repeat the process to customize the different characters in the "Key Signatures" section

Unfortunately, we do not have any more clear instructions aside from those that have already been provided. All of these changes are made in the Document Options.


Now, maybe it is obvious to some or most of the forum members what the next step is, in other words, having made font changes for Key and Accidentals, how I place them on the score. But it really is not to me.

How do I switch out the Western treble clef key signature for the Ottoman treble clef key signature?

How do I place an Ottoman accidental in the score when an individual note changes pitch for a measure?

I'm sorry if I am asking very basic questions, I just haven't had any clear answers yet as far as I can tell. Perhaps it is just my inexperience with this software.

I feel like I have learned how to load the gun, but still don't know how to fire it (sorry for the gun analogy).
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Ottoman Music - Key Signatures and Accidentals

Postby Peter Thomsen » Sat Sep 06, 2008 2:23 pm

1) The clef is the least of the problems:
Go to the Clef Designer, and edit one of the 18 clefs:
Document Options > Clefs > Clef Designer

2) To make the accidentals work, you should create a non-standard key signature with the necessary number of steps/octave.
My first suggestion would be a key signature with 53 steps/octave, but that may not be necessary, since playback isn't an issue.

I have some layout questions:

A) Does the Ottoman system notate in the traditional Western 5-line staff with the standard diatonic (7 steps/octave) scale pattern where the "unaltered" (no accidentals, "white keys") scale steps are A, B, C, D, E, F, G?
Or does the basic, "white keys", scale contain more than 7 steps/octave?
Note that I'm asking about the layout, not the playback.
The number of "white keys" is an important element in the non-standard key signature.

B) What are the "pitch change koma values" for the TSM font accidentals?
From your description I would assume that there are 7 accidentals, for the pitch change values
+9 komas
+5 komas
+4 komas
natural (= 0 komas)
-4 komas
-5 komas
-9 komas
Am I assuming right?

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Postby mtkouti » Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:27 am

Hi Peter,

Thanks for checking back in with me and offering your help.

I will give your suggestions a try and come back with questions if necessary. As far as the clef designer, do you think I could use the SERDON font, which already contains the Ottoman key signatures, with this clef designer function?

link-report/www.oudcafe.com/SERDON_font_examples.htm

A) Ottoman music does use the traditional 5 staff system, treble clef most if not all the time. The "white keys" would correspond to Western, tempered music for the most part. I wouldn't attempt to get to picky about ~1 koma differences for the "white keys" in Ottoman compared to Western. The difference is that there would be a lot more "black keys" to deal with.

All pieces are written either in the Key of A (La) or G (Sol), and are simply transposed by the artist to whatever concert pitch they wish to perform the piece.

So in effect, each note on the staff is not so much an independent note, but combined with the key signatures and accidentals, a place marker defining specific intervals which can then be transposed while performing.

For examples of Ottoman sheet music, click here:

link-report/www.oudcafe.com/rast_lesson.htm

B) Pitch change koma values are illustrated here:

link-report/www.oudcafe.com/makam_basics.htm

So, it looks like this process is going to be very complex...and I must say, rather discouraging...

I will check in again soon.
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Ottoman Key Signatures and Accidentals

Postby Peter Thomsen » Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:21 pm

Sorry about the late reply - I've been busy elsewhere.

I'm unable to make the first hyperlink in your posting work, so I can't see the SERDON font examples.
Therefore the following may not suit you precisely.

Traditional Western key signatures are elements in a set of key signatures organized on a circle of "frequency ratio 3:2" (the circle of the "fifth").
In a traditional Western key signature you transpose a key up or down a perfect fifth by adding/removing an accidental in the key signature.
This transposition brings you to a "neighbour key" on the circle.

With the Key Signature Tool you can also create a similar circular set of non-standard key signatures where you transpose a key up or down a perfect fifth by adding/removing an accidental in the key signature.
In Finale this is called a "linear" key signature.

If I understand you correctly, there is no need to create a similar "circular" set of linear key signatures in the Ottoman system.
You just create one key signature, and the performers transpose it to whatever concert pitch in which they wish to perform the piece.

Therefore I suggest that you create the key signature as a nonlinear key signature:

Key Signature Tool.
Double-click the staff.

In the dialog box Key Signature, go to the upper pop up menu - "Major Key" - and choose "Nonstandard...".

In the dialog box Nonstandard Key Signature, click the radio button "Nonlinear Key Signature".
Click the button "KeyMap".

In the dialog box Key Step Map, click the right-triangle to increase the Totals Steps number to 31. (That's right! You don't need all the 53 steps. 31 steps will do.)

You get 31 "boxes", numbered from 00 to 30.
By clicking the "boxes" you can make them black and white in any pattern.

To set up the basic "white key" scale, the "black-and-white" pattern should be this:

00: white (= C)

01: black (= C + 1 koma)
02: black (= C + 4 komas)
03: black (= D - 4 komas)
04: black (= D - 1 koma)

05: white (= D)

06: black (= D + 1 koma)
07: black (= D + 4 komas)
08: black (= E - 4 komas)
09: black (= E - 1 koma)

10: white (= E)

11: black (= E + 1 koma)
12: black (= F - 1 koma)

13: white (= F)

14: black (= F + 1 koma)
15: black (= F + 4 komas)
16: black (= G - 4 komas)
17: black (= G - 1 koma)

18: white (= G)

19: black (= G + 1 koma)
20: black (= G + 4 komas)
21: black (= A - 4 komas)
22: black (= A - 1 koma)

23: white (= A)

24: black (= A + 1 koma)
25: black (= A + 4 komas)
26: black (= B - 4 komas)
27: black (= B - 1 koma)

28: white (= B)

29: black (= B + 1 koma)
30: black (= C - 1 koma)

In this key map you have 31 steps in total, and 7 diatonic steps.

Click OK to return to the dialog box Nonstandard Key Signature.

Now you have set up the white keys, and the black keys for the accidentals.
The next step is to define the accidentals.

Click the button "Attribute".

In the dialog box Special Key Signature Attributes, click the button "Symbol font...", and select your accidental font (TSM).
The font TSM may already be selected.
Click OK to return to Special Key Signature Attributes.

Click the button "Symbol List ID...".

In the dialog box Symbol List, define your accidentals:
+ 8 komas character: Alter Amount: 4 (quadruple sharp)
+ 5 komas character: Alter Amount: 3 (triple sharp)
+ 4 komas character: Alter Amount: 2 (double sharp)
+ 1 koma character: Alter Amount: 1 (single sharp)
zero character (= natural): Alter Amount : 0
- 1 koma character: Alter Amount: -1 (single flat)
- 4 komas character: Alter Amount: -2 (double flat)
- 5 komas character: Alter Amount: -3 (triple flat)
- 8 komas character: Alter Amount: -4 (quadruple flat)

Note that each time you have defined an accidental, you must click the button "Insert", to insert the accidental in the symbol list.
To define the next accidental, click the button "Next", and the dialog box will display "List Element NEW".

Click OK to return to the Special Key Signature Attributes.

Since playback isn't an issue, you can leave the remaining fields in Special Key Signature Attributes blank.
Click OK to return to Nonstandard Key Signature.

In a nonlinear key signature there is no linking at all between the key map and the key signature's display on the staff.
By default Finale will display a key signature of 7 sharps.
To get rid of the 7 sharps, click the button "AOrdAmt".

In the dialog box Accidental Order and Amount, for Unit 1 (= the first accidental), set the Amount to 0, and click OK.
There is no need to set the following units (Unit 2, Unit 3, &c.) to 0.
Finale will automatically remove all units after the first "0 unit".

Click OK 3 times to return to the score.

Now you can enter the notation directly.
An example (Simple Entry with computer keyboard and entry caret):

C
E
D
E
F
+
+ (...adds a 4 koma sharp on F...)
G
F
-
- (...flats the F back to natural...)
E
G
A
B
- (...adds a 1 koma flat on B...)

&c.

If I understand you correctly, the SERDON font displays both the treble clef and the key signature, all in one single font character? Yes?
Therefore, in the Clef Designer, create a clef where you use this single font character as the "clef character".
In that way you can get the key signature display, just with a change of clef.
But this "clef" key signature is only display.
In addition you have to create a separate nonlinear key signature with a key step map where the white boxes are the scale steps in the scale.
If e. g. the key signature shows a sharp on F, then F sharp should have a white box, whereas F natural should have a black box.

Peter
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Postby mtkouti » Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:46 pm

Thank you for such a detailed response!

I will try and work all of this out today.


:)

Take care,

m
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Postby Neset » Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:06 am

Hi Peter, I tried your method, unfortunately I got lost when you said "Click the button "Symbol List ID..."."

So I don't know how to define the accidentals :))

In the box we open there are 2 elements, Alter and Character,

What exactly should we write there and what does the Alter do ?

Thanks a lot for the help.
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Symbol List dialog box

Postby Peter Thomsen » Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:28 pm

In this example let's take the first line in my instructions for the dialog box Symbol List:
+ 8 komas character: Alter Amount: 4 (quadruple sharp)


When you open the dialog box it says:
Symbol List: 0
List Element: New
(and 3 buttons are greyed out)

In the field "Alter Amount:", type '4' (You want this accidental to appear when you - during note entry - hit the '+' key 4 times)

In the field "Characters", type the character for the "+ 8 komas" accidental.
I don't know the font TSM, so I don't know, in which character slot the "+ 8 komas" glyph is located in the TSM font.
In this example let's say that it's in slot #108.
In text fonts you have a lowercase 'l' in slot #108, so you can enter character #108 by hitting the letter L key.
Are you using Windows or Mac?
If you are using Windows, you can also enter character #108 by holding down the Alt key while typing 108 on the NumPad (not on the QWERTY keyboard!)

You won't see the "+ 8 komas" accidental when you type it in the text field "Characters", because Finale displays character #108 in a generic text font (= you will see a lowercase 'l' in the text field).
But the accidental will display correctly in the score.

Finally (this step is important!), click the button "Insert".
The accidental is added to the key signature's Symbol List.


Now proceed to the next line in my instructions:
+ 5 komas character: Alter Amount: 3 (triple sharp)
Type '3' in the first field, and type the "+ 5 komas" character in the other field.
Click "Insert".
(&c.)


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Postby Neset » Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:39 am

You are great Peter!!

Thanks a lot for the nice explanation.

I completely understand everything now and manage to make it work for each scales of the turkish classical music.
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Postby mtkouti » Mon Sep 29, 2008 3:04 pm

Thank you Peter!

I have been away for a while and was not able to try everything you had listed here. So far I have been successful with the simplest part (creating clefs) and am moving on to the more complicated accidentals steps.

I really appreciate your help, and the help I was given by Brian Prunka who is also very gifted in Finale.

Too bad the actual Finale Tech Support team shows no real interest in helping with these kinds of issues, and leaves their work to be done by their own customers. That seems a little backwards to me.

But thanks guys, I appreciate your help.
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Postby mtkouti » Mon Sep 29, 2008 3:53 pm

Your instructions absolutely worked!!!

Thank you!

I really appreciate your amazing help!
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Problem with key signatures/accidentals

Postby mtkouti » Thu Oct 09, 2008 3:01 am

Hi,

An additional problem has popped up.

OK, so I have done all the above and can view both Ottoman Key Signatures and Accidentals, the first using the Clef design option, and the second through the simple note entry after having followed set up instructions above.

My problem is, I am trying to write a piece in Rast makam, which is written generically in G, and has an F# in it. This makam/mode is very similar to G major scale.

Now, this F# is displayed in the Clef, but is not recognized as part of the key signature by Finale.

Therefore, when I try to enter in an F natural (to be visible in the score) it doesn't work, b/c Finale thinks that F is already natural, and not sharp in the first place (I believe it is assuming we are in A minor or C major in this non-linear key signature).

Now, when I switch to G major key signature, my issues with making F natural are no longer a problem, but I have a wacky key signature visible b/c I'm using a Turkish TSM font (Serdon) for Key Signatures.

My question is, what is the best way of tackling this?

Is it possible to HIDE a key signature while preserving my custom clef in the score?

Or, can I "force" a natural sign on the F in the measures needed? Possibly by changing the key signature in that measure only, and hiding the changed key signature?

I appreciate your help, and please let me know if I need to clarify anything.[/list]
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Postby mtkouti » Thu Oct 09, 2008 4:03 am

I actually received an answer to this from my friend Brian Prunka.

The easiest way to get around this issue is to force the natural sign by hitting the "*" key while the note is selected, and creating a new symbol, in this case the natural sign using either my TSM Turkish font or Maestro font, selecting it, and then simply positioning it appropriately before the note it is meant to modify.

Phew! That was actually pretty easy…
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Postby djsod » Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:31 pm

Hello,

I am a musicologist and I am writing my degree work in finale with ottoman symbols.

I am trying to put the key but i dont have the fonts needed.
SERDON (for the special Ottoman key signatures), and TSM (for the special accidentals).

does anyone know how to find them?
or maybe someone can send them to me via mail....

iliaspost@hotmail.com

Its very important for me and I really need them.

thank you very much.

Ilias Kurt
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Re: Ottoman Key Signatures and Accidentals

Postby OzgurKarahan » Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:43 pm

Hello Mtkouti and Peter,

I found the questions and answers very helpfull. But I regret to say that I can not play any instrument and I rely on vast playback capabilities of Finale program.

Peter, OK, you defined a new non-linear key-signature. But what if I wanted to playback an ottoman piece written with this key-signature. You just stopped the explanation at that point on the answer to Mtkouti's question.

>>Since playback isn't an issue, you can leave the remaining fields in >>Special Key Signature Attributes blank.
>>Click OK to return to Nonstandard Key Signature.


I am also a Ottoman music admirer and I plan to use Finale 2010 to discover some very old samples of music and I need this feature.

Can you give some more detail about that?

Thank you in advance.

:ozgur
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Ottoman Key Signatures, playback

Postby Peter Thomsen » Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:29 pm

Hello ozgur,

The playback of Ottoman key signatures is really not a problem with Finale, but rather a (big!) problem with the playback device.

The built-in soft-synth that comes with Finale, is created for traditional, Western European key signatures where the octave is divided into 12 chromatic half-steps.
Pitches "in between" the 12 chromatic half-steps can only be obtained by modifying (with a Pitchwheel) the existing 12 half-steps.

If you simply use the soft-synth to play music in an Ottoman key signature (created correctly in Finale), you will hear that all the intervals are way too big.

I can see two workarounds. Both workarounds require deep knowledge of Finale:

1) Use an external MIDI playback device that is capable of dividing the octave into more than 12 steps (53 steps, to be precise).
This is the solution for serious work when you need correct playback of many pieces.

2) Use the internal soft-synth (with only 12 steps), and modify the pitches individually with expressions (use the expression playback effect "Pitchwheel").
This is the "cheap and dirty" solution to get correct playback of a single piece.
It can be quite time consuming since you have to modify each and every pitch in the piece.
This is definitely not something you want to do with many pieces.
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Postby lezouave » Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:21 pm

Hi all,

I use finale to transcribe Ottoman influenced music, and have found an answer to the microtonal pitch playback question.

Using pitchbend and note expressions to set the pitch of sigah, bayati and so on is very cumbersome and sounds bad too, since it is difficult to get the timing of the pitchbend data correct.

Instead, the approach to take is to use a playback device that includes programming for the Scala system for microtonal adjustments. It works using a simple text file that specifies the pitch of each note.
link-report/www.huygens-fokker.org/scala/

One such device is Garritan Personal Orchestra, or a software instrument that uses the Kontakt or Aria playback engine. There are many, this is just what I am familiar with.

Steve
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Re: Ottoman Music in Finale - Key Signatures and Accidentals

Postby ud dude » Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:48 pm

Wow

Thanks for this post, I have been struggling with this issue for years. I have been using finale since 1997 with an interest in Middle-Eastern Makam music since 2003. I have never found finale to be satisfactory.

So first thanks for such detailed explanations, but this is a crazy amount of work just to define key signatures that are totaly standard in a very popular and wide spread form of non-western music.

I often start by creating a MIDI file in Cubase then importing into FInale, so I need to change Key sigs after most of the note data is entered will this method change the pitches or transpose in any way.

I have been asking MM to simplfy this aspect of the interface for years.

Finale is so complex, powerful and flexible that it makes no sense that so much work is required from the user just to get a (non-standard, sic) ( it is VERY standard in other parts of the world) key sig.

I have been asking for an interface that allows users to start with a blank staff and drag from a pallet of accidentals to where they need to go on the staff, then for the 1/2 flats and 1/2 sharps we should get to define how many cents above or below western tuning they are.

If you also have an interest in Makam based music please make the feature request. Maybe one day it will get implimented.
thanks
the ud dude
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Re: Ottoman Music in Finale - Key Signatures and Accidentals

Postby lezouave » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:31 pm

Hi,

Wow, what an old post!

Oddly I just sent MM tech support that suggestion. I have little hope for it, in spite of the overwhelming surge of mass media popularity serious maqam performance is enjoying these days. (Oh, wait that was a dream I had the other night)

I have been thinking about this stuff the past few days - first off key sigs for maqams and modal musics are hardly standard. How would you make a key sig for Saba, for example? You need Bb, E (sikah) "half flat" Gb and sometimes Db at the top of the octave, sometimes not. Modes frequently have rules about the pitches above and below the the melody's main octave. Should that be in the key sig?

Second, those pitches aren't really 1/2 flats, but slightly different, and it depends on who is playing. the E in Bayati is lower than the E in Rast, so to notate them you would need two symbols, and to play it back you would need the right intonation.

It might make more sense to simply type the name of the maqam at the point on the page where it comes in than to have a key sig.

Or, for the key sig, the quick way is to just use expressions. This way you can get it to look exactly right. But if you want to have playback work properly that's not enough. You still have to have some method of raising and lowering equal tempered pitches.

I have been asking for an interface that allows users to start with a blank staff and drag from a pallet of accidentals to where they need to go on the staff, then for the 1/2 flats and 1/2 sharps we should get to define how many cents above or below western tuning they are.


Finale already can do what you are asking for, albeit by a different method.

Create expressions with pitchbend, and then a non-printing expression with a zero value for pitchbend. Assign metatools to your microtonal flats and/or sharps and now you have a one-click way to insert "quartertones".

Then, if you are feeling adventurous, copy a measure you assign said expressions to. Copy it to a clip file (opt or alt-C). Then when you want to use it paste it from the clip file with the Edit Filter activated and only "expressions..." checked. Admittedly clunky, but it does work. In Finale 2012 this is working better than in 2009, for whatever reason (my own perception possibly, or advances in the Aria player for GPO4.)

See you over at the other forum,

Steve
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