automatically redefine pages when extracting parts

Erik Van Geit · Post by **Erik Van Geit** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:35 am

Hello,

I'm missing something obvious here!?

When extracting parts it's like my system margins are still set at a previous setting. When I do "redefine pages" then all is OK.

How can you automatically redefine pages when extracting parts?

kind regards,
Erik

Peter Thomsen · Post by **Peter Thomsen** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:10 pm

Take a look at
Document menu > Page Format > Score...
and
Document menu > Page Format > Parts...

My guess is that these page format settings are not as you want them, since "Redefine Pages" uses these settings.

Erik Van Geit · Post by **Erik Van Geit** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:19 pm

Peter,
Thank you for your answer.

Not sure if you didn't interprete my question in the opposite way or my english was not correct. I think my settings are correct: but they are not applied in the extracted part, unless I explicitly do "redefine".

I do not understand what happens and will refrase my question once more to be sure.

I knew about the settings

Document menu > Page Format > Score...
and
Document menu > Page Format > Parts...

before asking the question. So these were set as I wanted them (attachment: "Score Page Format for Parts", but the system margins are not the same in the extracted parts (attachment: "Part - System Margins"). They become only correct when I do "redefine pages". (attachment: "Part - Edit System Margins after redefine")

Sorry, attachments are not displayed in the order I uploaded them.

Hope you can see what's happening now, else I could send a little sampe file?

best regards,
Erik

Peter Thomsen · Post by **Peter Thomsen** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:56 pm

Erik,

1) Is there any particular reason why you are "extracting parts"?
Why don't you use "linked parts"?

2) Did you examine the linked parts before extracting?
Is the page format correct in the linked parts?

2) I know this sounds crazy since you are having an issue with the parts, not with the score, but could you attach a screen shot of your settings in "Page Format for Score"?

Erik Van Geit · Post by **Erik Van Geit** » Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:59 pm

Hi,

Thank you for the follow up, Peter.
Can somebody test the "mus"?

I'm using "extract" because now I want to edit a part without changing the score.

I checked the linked parts and they have the same behaviour. I need to "redefine pages" before they get the correct layout. Shouldn't that be automatic too?

The attachment shows the "Page Format for Score".

Thanks to everybody for the help.

best regards,
Erik

michelp · Post by **michelp** » Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:42 pm

Erik,

Please re-read Peter's first post, the second one of this thread.
Page format->Score (and parts) contains all the formatting values that Finale uses when new pages are created.
It may be that the first pages do not follow these values. Fortunately, as you know, you can apply these values using Page Layout->Redefine pages.
For now, you'll have to experiment a bit with these values and use Redefine pages to see the effects, until you find the right ones. After that, when you are pleased, you'll see what you want, in the score and in the parts.
Save an empty copy as a template.
Good templates are big time savers in that respect.

Erik Van Geit · Post by **Erik Van Geit** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:31 am

Thanks for trying to help, michel,

I'm lost. I am using Finale for many years and know about those formats, I know about "redefine pages" and a lot of stuff like templates, copies etcetera, but do not understand why parts would not follow the formats that I have set even before they were created. That's my question. As far as I remember those settings were always applied correctly in parts, till now with Finale 11b.

It may be that the first pages do not follow these values.

Why not? I've gently asked the program to do so before they were even made

Perhaps you did a good job with your reply and perhaps others do understand what you are actually trying to tell me, but I do not. So perhaps you could refrase it? I've been trying for a long time - always doing so before asking questions, because I like to find out myself - and can not get my head around it...

QUESTION asked in another way
Can't I expect that the Format settings which you see above are applied in my parts? Under what circumstances wouldn't that not be the case?
Did somebody try the mus file? So you can see what I am talking about.

hoping somebody will see what the problem really is,
best regards,
Erik

michelp · Post by **michelp** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:19 pm

Erik,

I took a look at your file. A few observations :
- the score follows the page format->score parameters. (Redefine pages does not show any difference)
- as you noticed, the parts do not follow the page format->parts parameters. Redefine pages makes a difference when applied on the parts. The distance between systems becomes zero, which is the way your parameters (parts) are set.
And redefine pages has to be applied to each part, one by one.

I did a test on one of my files, with the same results.
I have to apply "redefine all pages" on each part, one by one, to see the parts the way they are defined in page format->parts.

I hope I have understood that this is you complaint. I hope somebody can tell us if there is a way to see the parameters of the parts applied directly on all parts from the moment parts are generated.

If we miss something, I would be happy to learn what it is...

PS : a couple of things :
- you could define the page size as A4 rather than Custom (unless it is the conversion which lost it)
- I would keep the titles, etc..., within the boundaries of the page margins.

Erik Van Geit · Post by **Erik Van Geit** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:09 pm

Thanks for your remarks.
So, we see the same things. Glad to hear that, else I would become mad

Hopefully someone has a solution. It's not a big deal under normal circumstances, but quite strange...

- you could define the page size as A4 rather than Custom (unless it is the conversion which lost it)
- I would keep the titles, etc..., within the boundaries of the page margins.

that was done while testing a lot of things: no harm there

michelp · Post by **michelp** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:26 pm

It would be convenient :
- if parts would adopt the parameters of the Page format->parts when they get generated.
- and to have a redefine pages option for ALL parts in one go...

I'll ask the question to tech support.

michelp · Post by **michelp** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:24 pm

Erik,

Tech support asked me to test the part format in a new, default file, and things work correctly then :
Create a default file, add a few staves, fill them in with some music, change the part format, and then generate parts.
Check parts, and surprize : they follow the paramaters of part format !

Tech support seems to suggest that it could be a problem specific to a file. Then it is not rare !
PS : my files were created from templates originally made with an earlier version of Finale (2009). It would not be the first time that this would be a source of problems, which is of course ennoying.
It is not funny to have to rebuild my templates with each new version !

Was your file created in the latest version of Finale, or converted to it ? Please make a similar test.

Erik Van Geit · Post by **Erik Van Geit** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:42 pm

OK, same result! It works with new files.

My default file and templates date from at least version 2001 which was my previous one.

It seems easy to you to contact Tech support: do you have a special relation over there, or could I do the same and get quick answers to?
Can't the guys over there solve the problem instead of asking us to rebuild our files?

Anyway I need to build a big one now: I'm going to put an entire musical in it and for sure will do a lot of testing before putting in my notes.

thank you for your time!
Erik

michelp · Post by **michelp** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:57 pm

My advice, based upon my experience : start with a freshly made (2011) template. This would probably prevent some weird things like this problem to occur.

PS : To contact tech support is not a privilege. Any registered user has access to it :
http://www.finalemusic.com/support.aspx

Select : contact support
Open an account or log in if you have one.
Submit case.

They reply within 24 hours.

michelp · Post by **michelp** » Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:04 pm

Erik,

I'm currently exchanging messages with tech support. I'll keep you posted.

One thing I have learned :

You actually can redefine pages (even selected pages) for ALL parts at once :

"Page Layout Menu > Redefine pages > Selected Pages of Selected Parts/Score and chose All Parts from page 1 to _ (left the second field blank to apply to all pages)"

Erik Van Geit · Post by **Erik Van Geit** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:30 am

michelp wrote:You actually can redefine pages (even selected pages) for ALL parts at once :

"Page Layout Menu > Redefine pages > Selected Pages of Selected Parts/Score and chose All Parts from page 1 to _ (left the second field blank to apply to all pages)"

Thanks,
That is about linked parts of course. Good to know.

michelp · Post by **michelp** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:11 am

Erik Van Geit wrote:That is about linked parts of course

Extracted parts, too.

Erik Van Geit · Post by **Erik Van Geit** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:47 pm

michelp wrote:
Erik Van Geit wrote:That is about linked parts of course
Extracted parts, too.

I meant: when you have already extracted some parts, you can not redefine them all at once, even if they are open at the moment you perform "redefine": I've tested that and it seemed logic te me, because they are not linked.
Perhaps you meant something else.

michelp · Post by **michelp** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 3:30 pm

We agree. Talking about extracting parts, I ment that you can apply the "redefine all pages" to the all generated parts in one operation BEFORE you extract the parts as separate files. After extraction, you will of course have to do it in each individual file.

michelp · Post by **michelp** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:23 pm

Erik,

After several exchanges of mails and example files, MakeMusic support seems to admit that things are not 100% normal.

Most significant excerpts :

Me :
"But... in your test, a "fresh" modification was made to the page format->parts AFTER the file was opened and before generating parts.
If I SIMPLY OPEN the file and generate parts right away, the distance between systems does not look ok.
If I apply Redefine pages, then only do I see the correct settings in the parts.
In other words :
- If I change page format->part settings just BEFORE generating parts, the parts apply the settings (without even using Redefine pages)
- If I open a file and DIRECTLY generate parts, the settings are not 100% correct (the distance between systems is different) and it has get fixed with Redefine pages for all parts."

MM :
"I see what you are saying. I'll pass this along to our developers for correction. In the meantime, generating parts after setting the desired layout should work when working with parts."

Erik Van Geit · Post by **Erik Van Geit** » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:47 pm

You did a good job!

- If I change page format->part settings just BEFORE generating parts, the parts apply the settings (without even using Redefine pages)

Makes me think of a trick before generating parts: change some format setting and then change it back to wat it was. (to tired to test that now)

best regards!
Erik

michelp · Post by **michelp** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:34 am

Or generate parts, followed by redefine pages->selected ->all parts, that would be fast, too.
The only thing that is not clear, is whether or not the problem is limited or not to documents/templates converted from an earlier version of Finale.

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