"Scrub mode" playback for single instruments is unreliable

Discuss playback problems, including VST, Garritan, MIDI, etc.

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CraigP
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Finale Version: 25
Operating System: Windows

Post by CraigP » Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:58 am

I have always felt this was one of the best features of Finale. Theoretically, when looking at the score, you can press ctrl-shft-spacebar, and then mouse over notes to hear individual notes from individual instruments. But it seems that this feature is no longer working reliably. I suppose this may depend heavily on system configuration (playing through MIDI versus VSTs, etc.) But it does seem this used to be completely reliable and not it is very spotty. Sometimes the notes will play. Other times they won't sound.

I am running V25, but I think 2014.5 (and perhaps earlier releases) also had this problem. I am curious if anybody else notices this.

Lately I have been rendering in MIDI mode which should be the simplest configuration for Finale. I send the MIDI through LoopMIDI to a DAW. I can see from the DAW that the silent notes never have any MIDI information sent. I am running Windows 10.

Anybody else having this problem? Anybody else see it working perfectly?
Finale version: 25.2
OS: Windows 10 64-bit CPU: Haswell 4790 4.0 GHz, 4 core, 8 thread Memory: 16 GB Video: GTX-760Ti
Storage: Sandisk SSD 500GB for active projects. ReadyNAS 20 TB for long-term storage
http://sonocrafters.com/


CraigP
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Finale Version: 25
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Post by CraigP » Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:02 am

I did some further testing. At times, it works 100% perfectly, but then it gets into a mode where only a small percentage of the notes sound.

1) For my test, I loaded up my DAW with an orchestral template that has MIDI inputs for every instrument in the orchestra. This plays back fine when using the normal transport controls in Finale.

2) I played around with a Finale score I recently created using this orchestra template. The scrub playback was goofy.

3) I stopped Finale, but left my DAW alive -- I never touched the DAW during this entire test sequence.

4) I started Finale V25 and created a small score with flute, oboe, clarinet, B clarinet, and bassoon only.

5) I used Finale hyperscribe to load up those 5 staves with gibberish notes.

6) They played back perfectly in scrub mode, with the exception of notes that were out of range for the synths (Garritan in this case)

7) Then I did a little editing -- mainly just shifted the bassoon and bass clarinet down an octave.

At that point, the scrub playback was broken -- only playing back about 10% of the notes. So this definitely looks like a Finale problem. I bet I can produce the same problem without routing through a DAW because I have seen this problem before I started using the DAW for playback.
Finale version: 25.2
OS: Windows 10 64-bit CPU: Haswell 4790 4.0 GHz, 4 core, 8 thread Memory: 16 GB Video: GTX-760Ti
Storage: Sandisk SSD 500GB for active projects. ReadyNAS 20 TB for long-term storage
http://sonocrafters.com/

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motet
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Post by motet » Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:11 am

You might try "Reload MIDI Driver" on the MIDI menu. I have to do this a lot.

CraigP
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Finale Version: 25
Operating System: Windows

Post by CraigP » Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:15 am

motet wrote:You might try "Reload MIDI Driver" on the MIDI menu. I have to do this a lot.
Thanks for that idea. It didn't seem to change the problem, but it was worth a try.

I did some further testing. It seems to be a case of interaction / clashes of notes on different staves. I have a clarinet part that is a simple 8th note scale. The bass clarinet and bassoon parts in the same measures have lots of irregular notes entered randomly with hyperscribe. When I try to scrub through only the simple clarinet part, only some of the notes play. But if I delete all the notes in the BCl and Bsn parts, now all the clarinet notes play perfectly when using scrub mode. One would think there should be no interaction between instruments when using the Ctrl-Shft-Spacebar over a single instrument, cut clearly that is not true.

I hope this will enable me to create a single MUSX file that exhibits this problem consistently. If so, then the Finale people ought to be able to fix it.
Finale version: 25.2
OS: Windows 10 64-bit CPU: Haswell 4790 4.0 GHz, 4 core, 8 thread Memory: 16 GB Video: GTX-760Ti
Storage: Sandisk SSD 500GB for active projects. ReadyNAS 20 TB for long-term storage
http://sonocrafters.com/

CraigP
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:59 pm
Finale Version: 25
Operating System: Windows

Post by CraigP » Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:37 am

Here is a file that messes up for me. I would appreciate if anybody else can try doing the scrub mode of playback to see if all the notes play perfectly. (Shft-Ctrl-spacebar and then fly the mouse over individual notes.)

This file plays in MIDI mode using the softsynth in bank 1.

I should add that one of the symptoms is that while the playback may begin with the correct instrument voice, it often switches to piano while you are in the process of passing the mouse over the notes.
Attachments
scrub test MIDI WW.musx
(88.94 KiB) Downloaded 165 times
Finale version: 25.2
OS: Windows 10 64-bit CPU: Haswell 4790 4.0 GHz, 4 core, 8 thread Memory: 16 GB Video: GTX-760Ti
Storage: Sandisk SSD 500GB for active projects. ReadyNAS 20 TB for long-term storage
http://sonocrafters.com/

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motet
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Post by motet » Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:15 am

It's messed up for me, and not only your file, but mine, too. Scrubbing worked fine in 2011, so this seems like yet another thing they broke and neglected to test. The cursor turns immedlate to "wait" mode, so it seems to be thrashing.

Once again, I wish they would systematically test all features--it's not that hard!--instead of relying on obviously inadequate beta testing.

It's not only for single instruments, by the way. Scrubbing of all instruments is broken, too.

CraigP
Posts: 14
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Finale Version: 25
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Post by CraigP » Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:37 am

motet wrote:It's messed up for me, and not only your file, but mine, too. Scrubbing worked fine in 2011, so this seems like yet another thing they broke and neglected to test. The cursor turns immediate to "wait" mode, so it seems to be thrashing.

Once again, I wish they would systematically test all features--it's not that hard!--instead of relying on obviously inadequate beta testing.

It's not only for single instruments, by the way. Scrubbing of all instruments is broken, too.
OK. Thanks. I'll report the problem.
Finale version: 25.2
OS: Windows 10 64-bit CPU: Haswell 4790 4.0 GHz, 4 core, 8 thread Memory: 16 GB Video: GTX-760Ti
Storage: Sandisk SSD 500GB for active projects. ReadyNAS 20 TB for long-term storage
http://sonocrafters.com/

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:14 pm

Scrubbed just fine for me.

Zuill
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

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motet
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Post by motet » Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:15 pm

MIDI, not VST output?

I wonder what the difference is. I tried a couple of files comparing 2011 and 2014.5 with the same result. If I put the cursor on a note in 2014.4 and press Ctrl-Space or Ctrl-Shift-Space, it's fine, but when I then move the cursor with the mouse the cursor changes to the spinning blue circle. I have an older processor, so if they somehow made it much less efficient, that might explain it, but I'm guessing Craig has a faster system if he's running V. 25.

Normal playback is fine.

CraigP
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Post by CraigP » Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:04 pm

motet wrote: I'm guessing Craig has a faster system if he's running V. 25.
Yes, that is a very fast system with loads of memory. It was purpose-built to run my DAW.

I agree that scrubbing seems to work OK if you use VST output. MIDI output should be a lighter load, so it is surprising that VST works and MIDI does not, if it really is load related.
Finale version: 25.2
OS: Windows 10 64-bit CPU: Haswell 4790 4.0 GHz, 4 core, 8 thread Memory: 16 GB Video: GTX-760Ti
Storage: Sandisk SSD 500GB for active projects. ReadyNAS 20 TB for long-term storage
http://sonocrafters.com/

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motet
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Post by motet » Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:09 am

I'm hoping Zuill will confirm it was MIDI output he tried. Perhaps someone else will test it as well.

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:54 am

Both MIDI and VST worked equally as well. I use Direct Sound.

Zuill

P.S.: After a bit more testing, I see some of what you describe. I avoid this by making sure my mouse is above the notes. Inside the staff seems to trigger some unwanted behavior as you describe. Just make sure your mouse hovers above the notes.
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

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motet
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Post by motet » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:16 pm

With scrubbing you should be able to keep the keys held down and move the cursor from note to note, which of course means going in between. Kind of like setting your own playback tempo. Can you "play" a passage like this? That is where I get into trouble. Used to work fine.

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:47 pm

Upon further testing, I discovered what condition causes this behavior for me. The only time I get the strange behavior is in the Selection Tool. It seems that when in other Tools, it doesn't happen. I'll test further, but that seems to be the trigger. The little ear should not disappear either, but in the Selection Tool, it disappears. However, in other Tools, all seems to work.

Try to see if you get similar results.

Zuill
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

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motet
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Post by motet » Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:06 pm

Just so--thanks!

My comment stands about poor, poor quality control. They need a checklist of things to try, not just "does this new version of Finale seem OK?"

CraigP
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Finale Version: 25
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Post by CraigP » Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:48 pm

zuill wrote:The only time I get the strange behavior is in the Selection Tool. It seems that when in other Tools, it doesn't happen.
Good catch. I see the same thing. That helps a lot because until this is fixed, I will still be able to work around the problem by switching tools.

I have reported this and MakeMusic has accepted it as a problem they were able to reproduce.
Finale version: 25.2
OS: Windows 10 64-bit CPU: Haswell 4790 4.0 GHz, 4 core, 8 thread Memory: 16 GB Video: GTX-760Ti
Storage: Sandisk SSD 500GB for active projects. ReadyNAS 20 TB for long-term storage
http://sonocrafters.com/

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