sixteenth note sextuplet

Discuss Finale PrintMusic here.

Moderators: Peter Thomsen, miker

Post Reply
Alan Knapper
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:24 pm
Finale Version: Finale 27
Operating System: Windows

Post by Alan Knapper » Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:38 pm

Printmusic 2011, W7

Why is it that tuplets are such a headache?

I'm trying to make a 16h note sextuplet, and following the process in the instructions, but the best I can get is five notes under my bracket with the 6 on it. It'll eventually show me a rest in that last place, but I can't replace it with a note.

And I read the thread where the moderator gave a whole slew or reasons why the tuplet tool doesn't work with certain settings, and that it's necessary to use speedy entry instead of simple entry.

What a pain in the a**.

Isn't that a flaw in the program? Has that finally been fixed in PM2014? So far, tuplets have been a problem with this software ever since I started using it, and I've tinkered off and on for over 10 years with it.

Please tell me I don't have to figure out how to deactivate a whole bunch of settings, and use a specific entry method to actually use this function...


User avatar
Peter Thomsen
Posts: 6575
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:47 pm
Finale Version: Finale v27.4
Operating System: Mac

Post by Peter Thomsen » Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:23 pm

Alan Knapper wrote:…Please tell me I don't have to figure out how to deactivate a whole bunch of settings, and use a specific entry method to actually use this function…
I could be wrong here, but I think that the tuplet problem you describe, only appears, when you try to enter a tuplet at the end of a measure.
The problem is that the measure gets temporarily “overfilled” during the tuplet creating process.
Simple Entry will not allow “overfill” if “check for Extra Notes” is selected.

You do not have to use a specific entry method.
There are several entry methods for tuplets.
All you have to do, is to avoid the method that does not work.

You can e. g.

- de-select “Check for Extra Notes”

or

- use computer keyboard with Simple Entry.
Entry string:
3 (entering the first 16th…)
Alt-9 (…activating the sub-tool Tuplet Tool, and opening the Tuplet Definition…)
6 (…I want 6 notes…)
Tab (…in the space of…)
4 (…4 notes…)
Enter (…OK…)
3
3
3
3
3 (…entering the remaining sextuplet notes)
Mac OS X 12.6.9 (Monterey), Finale user since 1996

Alan Knapper
Posts: 15
Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:24 pm
Finale Version: Finale 27
Operating System: Windows

Post by Alan Knapper » Sat Jun 28, 2014 2:16 pm

I just opened a test page and tried entering with the "extra notes" unchecked, and it looks like that might do the trick.

Now to attempt it with my real sheet...

Thanks

I hope 2014 has this solved...

User avatar
miker
Posts: 5978
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:28 pm
Finale Version: Finale 27.4
Operating System: Mac

Post by miker » Sat Jun 28, 2014 3:56 pm

There is nothing wrong with the program, so there is nothing for 2014 to "solve." You have to adapt your entry method. If you are entering a tuplet anywhere EXCEPT on the last beat, no problem.

If you enter it on the last beat, you have two choices: allow the measure to overfill and then create the tuplet, or, enter the first note, define the tuplet, and enter the rest of the notes.

The instructions have never been clear on this, and it has created problems for almost all users, until they learn the tricks.
Finale 27 | SmartScorePro 64
Mac OS 13.2.1 Ventura
Copyist for Barbershop Harmony Society

heyiknowher
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2024 1:56 pm
Finale Version: Finale 27
Operating System: Windows

Post by heyiknowher » Thu Feb 01, 2024 2:01 pm

Still glad that even though your response was almost 10 years ago, it still helped me today! Thank you!!! :D
Peter Thomsen wrote:
Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:23 pm
Alan Knapper wrote:…Please tell me I don't have to figure out how to deactivate a whole bunch of settings, and use a specific entry method to actually use this function…
I could be wrong here, but I think that the tuplet problem you describe, only appears, when you try to enter a tuplet at the end of a measure.
The problem is that the measure gets temporarily “overfilled” during the tuplet creating process.
Simple Entry will not allow “overfill” if “check for Extra Notes” is selected.

You do not have to use a specific entry method.
There are several entry methods for tuplets.
All you have to do, is to avoid the method that does not work.

You can e. g.

- de-select “Check for Extra Notes”

or

- use computer keyboard with Simple Entry.
Entry string:
3 (entering the first 16th…)
Alt-9 (…activating the sub-tool Tuplet Tool, and opening the Tuplet Definition…)
6 (…I want 6 notes…)
Tab (…in the space of…)
4 (…4 notes…)
Enter (…OK…)
3
3
3
3
3 (…entering the remaining sextuplet notes)

User avatar
miker
Posts: 5978
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:28 pm
Finale Version: Finale 27.4
Operating System: Mac

Post by miker » Thu Feb 01, 2024 5:07 pm

Here’s a tutorial I wrote up a few years back:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/weehrytsb4x0w ... y.pdf?dl=0
Finale 27 | SmartScorePro 64
Mac OS 13.2.1 Ventura
Copyist for Barbershop Harmony Society

User avatar
motet
Posts: 8152
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
Operating System: Windows

Post by motet » Thu Feb 01, 2024 5:55 pm

miker wrote:
Sat Jun 28, 2014 3:56 pm
If you enter it on the last beat, you have two choices: allow the measure to overfill and then create the tuplet, or, enter the first note, define the tuplet, and enter the rest of the notes.
I'm always surprised that people don't know about doing the latter, which is the way Finale is really designed to work. Turning off "check for extra notes," overfilling, and resorting to the separate Tuplet tool is so much more work, and seldom necessary except perhaps for mixed or nested tuplets, where a bug can come into play. I guess entering the first note before defining the tuplet is counter-intuitive.

User avatar
miker
Posts: 5978
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:28 pm
Finale Version: Finale 27.4
Operating System: Mac

Post by miker » Thu Feb 01, 2024 10:04 pm

I guess entering the first note before the tuplet may be confusing to some users, in Simple. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Speedy require you to define the tuplet before entering anything?
Finale 27 | SmartScorePro 64
Mac OS 13.2.1 Ventura
Copyist for Barbershop Harmony Society

User avatar
motet
Posts: 8152
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
Operating System: Windows

Post by motet » Thu Feb 01, 2024 10:33 pm

Yes. I think you're right that entering the note first must be what confuses people; that, and a reluctance to read the manual and learn how it works.

In Speedy you type Ctrl+2, +3, +4, etc. to set up a duplet, triplet, quadruplet, etc. respectively. For mixed tuplets where the longer note is first, Ctrl+1, akin to Simple's Alt+9, must be used. Ctrl+1 doesn't have a "sticky" option, so in that respect, Simple entry tuplets are superior. But Speedy doesn't have the bugs, can do nested tuplets, and Ctrl+number is a handy shortcut to the most common tuplets.

User avatar
David Ward
Posts: 807
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:48 pm
Finale Version: F 25.5 & 26.3
Operating System: Mac

Post by David Ward » Fri Feb 02, 2024 11:11 am

On a Mac in Speedy for a triplet consisting of crotchet (quarter) followed by quaver (eighth), I key Command 3 (Control 3 on Windows?) and enter a quaver, then immediately back the cursor to the entered quaver and change it to a crotchet. This preserves the triplet value of three quavers in the space of two.
Finale 25.5 & 26.3
Mac 10.13.6 & 10.14.6

User avatar
motet
Posts: 8152
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
Operating System: Windows

Post by motet » Fri Feb 02, 2024 4:43 pm

You can also type Command 1 immediately followed by Enter, which will set up the default three quavers in the space of two; then you can enter crotchet plus quaver with no backing up and changing. Might be slightly faster. Your method is better for a minim+crotchet triplet, though.

User avatar
miker
Posts: 5978
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:28 pm
Finale Version: Finale 27.4
Operating System: Mac

Post by miker » Fri Feb 02, 2024 9:50 pm

There’s no need in Simple to use the Alt-9, if you don’t have Use Current set. In my experience (at least, on barbershop music) you will either have quarter note or eight note tuplets in a song, but rarely both. So if you set it f.e. as <3 eighths in the space of 2 eighths> it doesn’t matter whether you enter a quarter or an eighth first. Enter the note, 9, and enter the next note, simply changing the duration.
Finale 27 | SmartScorePro 64
Mac OS 13.2.1 Ventura
Copyist for Barbershop Harmony Society

User avatar
motet
Posts: 8152
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
Operating System: Windows

Post by motet » Fri Feb 02, 2024 10:10 pm

Default "3 eighths in the space of 2 eighths" won't work with quarter-note triplets (three quarters in the space of 2), if that's what you mean by quarter note tuplet. It will work for quarter+eight triplets, though: quarter-note, 9, eighth-note, no need to change anything.

User avatar
miker
Posts: 5978
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:28 pm
Finale Version: Finale 27.4
Operating System: Mac

Post by miker » Sat Feb 03, 2024 4:49 am

What I meant is that most of the songs I’ve dealt with rarely have more than one form of tuplet. If your score has primarily eighth note tuplets <3 eighths in the space of 2 eighth notes> then you would set your default as just that. If your score is primarily 3 quarters in the space of two quarters, then that is the proper default. In either case, mixed tuplets within that grouping are easily done with simply the first note, followed by the 9.
Finale 27 | SmartScorePro 64
Mac OS 13.2.1 Ventura
Copyist for Barbershop Harmony Society

User avatar
motet
Posts: 8152
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
Operating System: Windows

Post by motet » Sat Feb 03, 2024 4:59 am

Ah, gotcha.

Post Reply