Display staff on all lines

TheOtherTom · Post by **TheOtherTom** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:20 am

I've hunted and hunted but can't find this:

How do you have the score display the staff on all lines, as per normal convention? My scores only show the clef at the start of the first line, with the time signature, and then only show the key signature thereafter.

I'm sure it's very simple but I assume it goes under some name with which I'm not familiar.

Many thanks

Peter Thomsen · Post by **Peter Thomsen** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:15 pm

You wrote:

"display the staff on all lines".

Do you mean "display the clef on all lines"?

Are you using PrintMusic or "the full Finale"?

In "the full Finale" there is an option - "Display Clef Only on First Staff System" - in Document Options - Clefs (this option is document specific, not program specific).

See the attached screen shot.

TheOtherTom · Post by **TheOtherTom** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:17 pm

Sorry - yes - display clef on all lines.

I'm on Printmusic. Is it therefore only possible to show the clef on the first line?

miker · Post by **miker** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:31 pm

That's just the way the lead sheet default document is set up. And I have no idea, why.

Just start a new document with the setup wizard, instead. The clef will be on every staff. Once you have the setup you like, you can save that as your default document.

TheOtherTom · Post by **TheOtherTom** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:45 pm

Unfortunately I can't do that.

I'm having to work from imported midi files.

I assume there is some other way - I can't really send out scores looking like this.

And ideas gratefully received

Tom

miker · Post by **miker** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:17 pm

Set up a new file, and copy the data from the bad file into that.

TheOtherTom · Post by **TheOtherTom** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:41 pm

Copy? How?

miker · Post by **miker** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:10 pm

The same way you copy anything else in finale.
Have your original file open.
Open a new document>Setup Wizard, and set it up the way you want it.
Click the Restore Down button, in the upper right. (That's the middle button of the three)
You can now see both files. Play with the windows, until you have access to them both.
Select the material in file 1, and drag it to the same staff in file 2.
Done.

TheOtherTom · Post by **TheOtherTom** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:54 pm

Thanks for the tip, but I tried it and that is going to be a nightmare. Unless the new doc is exactly the same as the old one it goes mad - and I've no idea how to set things up with the wizard - because none of the terms mean anything to me.

I really don't have time to learn all the details of this software - and I can see I'd have to do that to make up all the different wizard-created scores. I have 37 pieces of music here, all created by midi, with different numbers of staves, key sigs etc, all done and ready to go apart from this clef problem.

The whole point of making the files in Protools then importing via midi is to avoid the wizard, which is designed for people who work in a very different way to me.

I've assumed all along that I could just instruct it to show the clefs on all the lines. SURELY there is a command to do that? (How often do customers not want to have clefs on lines?)

Anyone got any other ideas?

It does say in the product description that MM will import midi files, so it must be able to display them in the conventional way, no?

miker · Post by **miker** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:10 pm

PrintMusic will do what you want. You just have to alter the default file.

Have you gone through the tutorials and videos, or did you just open the program, and expect that it would do everything for you?

If you are unwilling to learn the basics of your program (and it really is a basic problem) you have three choices: call tech support and let them walk you through it, ask them if they will send you a different default file, or upgrade to the full Finale.

Send one of the MIDI files to me, at wawoodman at aol dot com, and I'll look at it and maybe have some other suggestions.

TheOtherTom · Post by **TheOtherTom** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:09 pm

I've been using PM for 4 years but with huge difficulty. I have read the manual (I find it impenetrable) and watched all the tutorials, but I still find PM ugly and ungainly and totally counter-intuitive, so try to use Musescore whenever possible.

But there are still some bugs in MS which mean I've had to revert to PM for this (very big and important but one-off) project. (Upgrading to Finale is not an option - it would never be worth it).

I know my music theory, and have done so for 53 years. I can write but not actually read music because I suffer from severe dyslexia (yes, it really does exist). So I need a way of inputting and checking the music that does not involve a score - such as piano roll midi.

I had a tottering time with PM in the early days because of bugs in the registration process, exacerbated by callous support, but then had to resort to an upgrade (which was much against my better judgement). The plan was to do all the editing work in the piano-roll feature of Protools (which I can read without difficulty) and then just use PM to add the repeats and lyrics - which is all I need to do. I don't think that's a crime, and it should be possible as the the product description claims it.

But I would have just gone back to Cubase if I'd known I would have to learn the whole darn thing just to put clefs on the lines like any normal program should do out of the box.

Sorry if I sound upset, but I have always had the most terrible time with PM - the worst experience I've ever had with any software by a long margin. I can use Musescore without any difficulty whatsoever - and was a dab hand with Cubase for 20 years. It's only PM that's difficult and I really don't know why it should present so many challenges.

What were the programmers were thinking of - making midi files import with no clefs, and no way to correct this?

One default file would be no good I'm afraid. I have to have a different default file for every piece, ones that match the files I have spent the last two months making. And I can't do that because the program makes no sense to me - and I now don't have time to engage with it at that level even if I could.

Sorry to rant, but if you knew the full story of my years of struggles with PM I hope you'd be just a little bit sympathetic.

I will email you a couple of my files. Many many thanks - I'm up against a deadline on the biggest job of my life with the world watching and I'm more than gutted to find myself back at zero again.

Tom

miker · Post by **miker** » Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:31 pm

OK, you have my sympathy concerning your learning issues.

As I understand it, the reason that the PM default doc does not have clefs on every line is this:

MM has decided that many people use PrintMusic to do lead sheets.
Most lead sheets are done with the clef ONLY on the first staff.
PM does not have the ability to set up a document with the clef on the first line only.
It's easy to set up new PM documents, that would have clefs on all staves.
THEREFORE, let's make the PM default with the single clef.

I think this is pretty stupid reasoning, myself. In older versions of PM, up through 2010, the default doc had all clefs, and the lead sheet, with the clef only on the first staff, was available as a template. In 2011, they stripped most of the templates out of PM. And so, they moved the old "lead sheet" template into the "default" slot.

If you have been using PrintMusic for so long, try opening the MIDI in one of the older versions, and see what the result is.

TheOtherTom · Post by **TheOtherTom** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:30 am

Ahah - thanks for that info - it certainly explains the problem, but it doesn't help me unfortunately.

The old version of PM I have is 2006. The issue here is that it never worked properly on an intel laptop (in spite of assurances that it would, even with supposedly fixing updates) - the registration system failed constantly - and anyway it won't run on Snow Leopard. But even if I was to open the files in that, by some means, they would open as 'lead sheets' because that's how they were saved, surely?

This is very frustrating, because I fought long and hard against upgrading to 2011 because after all the nonsense I've encountered with PM (I still have issues around font choices and the quality of the JPEG output), I just knew something would go wrong.

Having gone to the expense of buying a new mac just so I could run Protools 8 (which has a good score function, but no chord, repeat or lyric input) and PM 2011 - surely a perfectly reasonable solution I'm a bit gutted to be here now, a week away from my next deadline.

If they had put a big warning on the website 'Beware, 2011 no longer shows clefs if you import from midi' I wouldn't have touched it with a barge pole.

I think my best solution will be to give up and just send out the scores without the clefs. I'll be ridiculed by the musicians - but at least they should be able to play the songs!

Thanks for your help - I'm going to have one more go at the copying method. I'll redo all the pieces I can in Musescore (the ones without triplets, dotted notes or chords with sharps in - all of which turn up MS's toes) and then see if I can bodge the others in PM.

Not ideal to have two different-looking scores in one work but I'm over a barrel now.

TheOtherTom · Post by **TheOtherTom** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:05 am

err - ok, fallen at the first hurdle trying to use the wizard.

I don't want any stave names, but when I drag them off to the left (I can't seem to erase them like I can the title, composer and copyright) the stave remains indented. (These scores are all being loaded into a word doc where they are cropped to fit between lines of dialogue etc).

Also, how do I stop it showing the guitar chords as those annoying little pictures for beginners, and continue showing the chord name as per my source version?

Thanks

Tom

PS One of the other things that makes PM very difficult to use is that you can't specify non-standard chord names - like "D (C)", meaning it's D on a melodeon, but you play a C if you're capo'd to the second fret on a mandocello. It just won't allow it.

TheOtherTom · Post by **TheOtherTom** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:21 am

ok - found the indent.

TheOtherTom · Post by **TheOtherTom** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:11 am

What do I do if when I copy across it copies everything except the lyrics, and then won't allow me to type in any new lyrics?

Is there some 'lock out lyrics' button that I need to un-check?

(These are not actually lyrics but the capo chords in brackets - which PM refuses to do - I was able to put them in as lyrics and slide them up to next to the 'proper' chords on the original files).

TheOtherTom · Post by **TheOtherTom** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:57 am

OK - I'm managing using the "A" (Text Tool) - but I find ALL the lyrics that I have copied across are uneditable, and I can't type in any new ones either. The new page is locked-out for lyrics.

I presume this is because of something to do with the wizard - maybe I used 'violin' instead of 'soprano' or something.

The wizard would be ok if it just asked you to choose how many staves, and with which clefs, you wanted instead of playing let's pretend orchestras - and then just let you input the rest normally. (I'm writing for folk instruments that don't appear anyway).

It's a very 'microsoftish' program, this - like Word. By trying too hard to help too much it renders itself almost unusable if you're wanting to do anything other than that which the programmers guessed you would.

Ah well.

TheOtherTom · Post by **TheOtherTom** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:34 am

And in case you're wondering why I'm asking these questions here instead of looking in the manual - I am, but as usual the answer is not searchable due to the massive number of answers you get if you don't already know the answer and so ask a detailed-enough question.

Here's perfect example of why I've never been able to fathom out PM properly:

For some strange reason, one of my scores has suddenly acquired some red horizontal lines across it. So I open the manual and do a search for "red lines." The only thing that comes up is something about the VERTICAL red line cursor that appears during copy and paste. There is no other entry about red lines, and yet I can't think of anything else to search for. That's all I know: red lines have mysteriously appeared and I need them to go away.

The manual's approach seems to be that we should read the entire book every time a problem crops up.

Please, does anyone know how to get rid of the lines - they print as grey in the jpeg and obscure the score.

Thanks

miker · Post by **miker** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:17 pm

Tom, the red lines are word extensions. They are appearing because you are using the lyric tool. They can be deleted. In the Lyrics menu, check Edit Word Extensions. A box will show at the end of the line (which may be on the next system, or even the next page. Click in the box, DELETE.

You can remove the staff names in the Staff menu: Edit Staff Attributes. Just select and delete the entry in Full Staff Name, and Abbr. Staff Name.

Chord menu: uncheck Show Fretboards

Rather than the Lyric tool, I would use the Text tool or the Expression tool for the Capo chords.

The lyrics may be a problem because they are attached to a different layer. I can't tell without seeing the mus file.

TheOtherTom · Post by **TheOtherTom** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:48 pm

Thanks a million Mike - that's fantastic.

I'd never have found the word extensions thing - as there were no lyrics in the original file on that one.

I've decided to re-record the problem lyrics, using the ones I wrote originally that I can't now change! (It'll be easier)

For the record, the Help desk have just suggested this for the original problem.

I'm going to carry on with the copy-drag now I've started, but will change the default for future use.

Anyone else reading this might find it useful:

The default file in PrintMusic only displays the clef on the first system. You can create a file from the setup using a single line instrument like a flute, delete the staff name, and change the playback instrument in the Instrument List, then resave this as your default file.

Once the changes are made, choose Save As from the File Menu. Name the file Maestro Default File (deleting the .mus extension) and save it to the following directory (I recommend moving or renaming the original file before saving this one):

Macintosh HD > Users > Library > Application Support > MakeMusic > PrintMusic 2011 > Music Files > Default Files

Restart PrintMusic and your files will have the clef on each system.

Thanks again

Tom

miker · Post by **miker** » Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:25 pm

Seems to me that's what I said in about the fourth post: make a new default file.

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