Manually adjusting VERTICAL placement of individual rests
Moderators: Peter Thomsen, miker
-
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:55 pm
- Finale Version: Finale 2018
- Operating System: Windows
I'm working in Finale 25/Windows version.
In a few measures where I am working in 2 layers (Soprano/Alto), both parts have a quarter rest on beat one of the measure. The quarter rest in Layer 2 (alto), is "hidden" and the quarter rest in Layer 1 (Soprano) is visible, but is positioned too high above the staff. Going online, I've found information regarding using Window > Special Tools Palette > Note Position Tool.
Documentation states, "When you click this tool, a handle appears above every note or rest in the measure (except a single default whole rest). You can reposition any note, chord, or rest horizontally by dragging its handle. ..."
I've activated the "Note Position Tool" but the "handles" do not appear. Do I need to be in any particular mode (such as measure, staff, selection tool, etc.) to have access to the "handles?" Also, is there a way to manually adjust the VERTICAL placement of rests (and not just horizontally as stated above)?
Thanks in advance for your assistance.
In a few measures where I am working in 2 layers (Soprano/Alto), both parts have a quarter rest on beat one of the measure. The quarter rest in Layer 2 (alto), is "hidden" and the quarter rest in Layer 1 (Soprano) is visible, but is positioned too high above the staff. Going online, I've found information regarding using Window > Special Tools Palette > Note Position Tool.
Documentation states, "When you click this tool, a handle appears above every note or rest in the measure (except a single default whole rest). You can reposition any note, chord, or rest horizontally by dragging its handle. ..."
I've activated the "Note Position Tool" but the "handles" do not appear. Do I need to be in any particular mode (such as measure, staff, selection tool, etc.) to have access to the "handles?" Also, is there a way to manually adjust the VERTICAL placement of rests (and not just horizontally as stated above)?
Thanks in advance for your assistance.
- Michel R E
- Posts: 702
- Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:16 pm
- Finale Version: Finale 2012, 25, 26
- Operating System: Windows
No.
With Finale 25 there is an option to automatically consolidate rests between layers.
With Finale 25 there is an option to automatically consolidate rests between layers.
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.
- Michel R E
- Posts: 702
- Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:16 pm
- Finale Version: Finale 2012, 25, 26
- Operating System: Windows
and why are people ignoring the simple and effective new feature that lets Finale consolidate rests automatically?
it's considerably less work than hiding a rest in one layer, then moving a rest in another.
it's considerably less work than hiding a rest in one layer, then moving a rest in another.
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.
- motet
- Posts: 8284
- Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
- Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
- Operating System: Windows
That is indeed a useful thing, and probably appropriate here, but it is possible to manually adjust the vertical position of a rest in the more general case, contrary to what you said. I do it occasionally.
- Michel R E
- Posts: 702
- Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:16 pm
- Finale Version: Finale 2012, 25, 26
- Operating System: Windows
It's not "contrary" to what I said if it involves absolutely no additional work on the user's side.
It's a setting. it does it automatically.
If rests can/should be consolidated, it will. If they can't/shouldn't, it won't.
I have just finished two major orchestral scores with Finale 25, and have not had to dick around with rests because of this new feature.
Try it, you'll like it.
It's a setting. it does it automatically.
If rests can/should be consolidated, it will. If they can't/shouldn't, it won't.
I have just finished two major orchestral scores with Finale 25, and have not had to dick around with rests because of this new feature.
Try it, you'll like it.
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.
- motet
- Posts: 8284
- Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
- Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
- Operating System: Windows
It is a good thing. One of the reasons I got TG Tools, which has been able to do it for a decade.
But there are non-consolidation situations where one wants to move a rest vertically, and it is indeed possible and in fact not uncommon.
But there are non-consolidation situations where one wants to move a rest vertically, and it is indeed possible and in fact not uncommon.
- Michel R E
- Posts: 702
- Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:16 pm
- Finale Version: Finale 2012, 25, 26
- Operating System: Windows
and this wasn't one of those situations.
which was why I offered the most efficient use of Finale, rather than a now superseded method of achieving the same result.
the example the OP gave very specifically referenced exactly what this new feature in Finale 25 does. Without any extra steps or slipping back and forth between layers or dragging anything.
which was why I offered the most efficient use of Finale, rather than a now superseded method of achieving the same result.
the example the OP gave very specifically referenced exactly what this new feature in Finale 25 does. Without any extra steps or slipping back and forth between layers or dragging anything.
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.
- miker
- Posts: 6012
- Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:28 pm
- Finale Version: Finale 27.4
- Operating System: Mac
I agree with Michel. Why not use the Consolidate Rests setting? There's no downside, that I know of.
Except: This setting was introduced in 2014. In that version and in 2014.5, if you had a rest as the first beat in a triplet in both layers, the bracket would only appear on the active layer side. That bug has been corrected in F25.
However, we don't know the OP's circumstance. Did he enter the notes himself? In that case, the setting is useful, and will work automatically. However, if the score was imported from another program or a scan, the rests may have been moved manually, and so the setting doesn't apply. In this case, either TG Tools or JW Change might be needed.
Except: This setting was introduced in 2014. In that version and in 2014.5, if you had a rest as the first beat in a triplet in both layers, the bracket would only appear on the active layer side. That bug has been corrected in F25.
However, we don't know the OP's circumstance. Did he enter the notes himself? In that case, the setting is useful, and will work automatically. However, if the score was imported from another program or a scan, the rests may have been moved manually, and so the setting doesn't apply. In this case, either TG Tools or JW Change might be needed.
Finale 27 | SmartScorePro 64
Mac OS 13.2.1 Ventura
Copyist for Barbershop Harmony Society
Mac OS 13.2.1 Ventura
Copyist for Barbershop Harmony Society
- motet
- Posts: 8284
- Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
- Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
- Operating System: Windows
I agree with Michel, also. Just correcting "Q: Is there a way to manually adjust the VERTICAL placement of rests (and not just horizontally as stated above)?" "A: No." Perhaps someone would read that and be misled.
-
- Posts: 1307
- Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:59 am
- Finale Version: Finale 27
- Operating System: Mac
For the OP's situation, I agree that just un-hiding the L2 quarter rest will fix the problem, if Doc Options > Layer is set to Consolidate Rests.Michel R E wrote:and why are people ignoring the simple and effective new feature that lets Finale consolidate rests automatically?
it's considerably less work than hiding a rest in one layer, then moving a rest in another.
However, see the attached image for an example of when this might be a problem. If you move to Layer 2 halfway through the measure in Simple Entry, Finale automatically hides the rests that precede it.
In such circumstances, Finale does not center the Layer 1 rest. So you either have to move the L1 rest manually, or split up the hidden rests into appropriate values.
You can also use JW Change to set the Vertical position to Zero, but be careful that your selection doesn't include rests that need to float.
- motet
- Posts: 8284
- Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
- Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
- Operating System: Windows
You must mean from the Selection tool, not from Simple entry? But if you want to then select something else, you need to either leave Simple entry or use ctrl-click, no?miker wrote:I never use the Control-click. I just double-click to select.
- miker
- Posts: 6012
- Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:28 pm
- Finale Version: Finale 27.4
- Operating System: Mac
Yes. But since my left hand is on the keyboard, it's easy to tap the ESC key to get into the selection tool. I guess I don't even think about it.
Finale 27 | SmartScorePro 64
Mac OS 13.2.1 Ventura
Copyist for Barbershop Harmony Society
Mac OS 13.2.1 Ventura
Copyist for Barbershop Harmony Society
-
- Posts: 144
- Joined: Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:21 pm
- Finale Version: 27
- Operating System: Windows
I'm tagging my new problem on here bc it's close to the same subject.
I write a lot of pieces lately, and transpose them frequently in order to play along in lots of keys. Everything fine, except all of a sudden in one piece (that has an 8th rest in every m) the rests go up & down with the notes when I transpose or change clef. I'm using JW Change to mass-restore their proper vertical position, but I wonder if there is some way to make them independent of transposition as they should be.
It is possible -- I don't remember -- that these rests were carved out of quarter-notes -- I have done that in a few pieces. That is, what was a quarter is now an 8th + 8th rest, throughout the piece. I may also have used JW Copy Rhythm to make one change by hand, and then JW changes all of the other desired m's quickly, though unfortunately, one at a time.
It's like the rests picked up a disease. Is there a cure (so they stay in place)?
Edit: by "transpose", I mean use the Key Signature tool.
See attached excerpt.
I write a lot of pieces lately, and transpose them frequently in order to play along in lots of keys. Everything fine, except all of a sudden in one piece (that has an 8th rest in every m) the rests go up & down with the notes when I transpose or change clef. I'm using JW Change to mass-restore their proper vertical position, but I wonder if there is some way to make them independent of transposition as they should be.
It is possible -- I don't remember -- that these rests were carved out of quarter-notes -- I have done that in a few pieces. That is, what was a quarter is now an 8th + 8th rest, throughout the piece. I may also have used JW Copy Rhythm to make one change by hand, and then JW changes all of the other desired m's quickly, though unfortunately, one at a time.
It's like the rests picked up a disease. Is there a cure (so they stay in place)?
Edit: by "transpose", I mean use the Key Signature tool.
See attached excerpt.
- Attachments
-
- Restless rests.musx
- (101.36 KiB) Downloaded 100 times
- zuill
- Posts: 4418
- Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:35 pm
- Finale Version: Finale 2011-v26.3.1
- Operating System: Windows
Moving rests when changing key has plagued me for years. I am not aware of an automatic method of having them be left untouched. Would be nice to know.
Zuill
Zuill
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
-
- Posts: 144
- Joined: Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:21 pm
- Finale Version: 27
- Operating System: Windows
I just experimented with my sample doc -- I copied m1-4 to a 3rd line, deleted the 8th rests there and replaced them with new ones. These behave. So, it's like the m1-4 rests think that they are notes.
But then I wrote out a new line with quarters in beat 3, then changed them to 8ths (Alt-4) and entered an 8th rest after them. These are behaved. I also experimented with using JW Change to copy the revised rhythm in the 1st m of the line to the others so as to zap their quarters & replace them with 8th-note + 8th-rest. These behaved. So the culprit is still hiding.
I have forever had only very few isolated cases of rests with vertigo -- this is the 1st time an entire doc was infected.
Maybe Finale Help needs to look into this? I will wait a day or so.
But then I wrote out a new line with quarters in beat 3, then changed them to 8ths (Alt-4) and entered an 8th rest after them. These are behaved. I also experimented with using JW Change to copy the revised rhythm in the 1st m of the line to the others so as to zap their quarters & replace them with 8th-note + 8th-rest. These behaved. So the culprit is still hiding.
I have forever had only very few isolated cases of rests with vertigo -- this is the 1st time an entire doc was infected.
Maybe Finale Help needs to look into this? I will wait a day or so.
- zuill
- Posts: 4418
- Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:35 pm
- Finale Version: Finale 2011-v26.3.1
- Operating System: Windows
You might experiment with the JW Change plugin regarding placement of rests. It seems the default centered on staff allows movement when transposed. Other settings seem to allow them to remain in place.
Zuill
Zuill
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
-
- Posts: 144
- Joined: Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:21 pm
- Finale Version: 27
- Operating System: Windows
Thanks for that tip, zuill -- problem solved. Some experimentation nets
Rests > Placement Style > either of the Floating options or Default-Centered on Staff
give the rests independence from transpositions. It is a strange contradiction -- when you select Vertical Level, what I have always used, the displaced rests center, but that seems to make them vulnerable to future displacement.
Rests > Placement Style > either of the Floating options or Default-Centered on Staff
give the rests independence from transpositions. It is a strange contradiction -- when you select Vertical Level, what I have always used, the displaced rests center, but that seems to make them vulnerable to future displacement.