Avoiding using cumbersome ties

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dstraigh
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Avoiding using cumbersome ties

Post by dstraigh » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:27 am

As shown in the attached picture I'd like to add a dotted quarter note on the upbeat of two - but Finale will not let me. I suspect I can make this work by using an eighth note with a tie and then a quarter note (Edit: yes that works - looks awful & tedious). However, this is very cumbersome. I thought maybe changing the time signature to 8/8 would allow me to place the note where I'd like it - but that did not work.

Anyway, is there a way to relax Finale (even if the notation isn't technically correct) just for the sake of putting ideas down without so much fuss?

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Re: Avoiding using cumbersome ties

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zuill
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Re: Avoiding using cumbersome ties

Post by zuill » Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:29 am

You can put a dotted quarter, but it looks like you've already filled the measure. Delete the rests and then put in the dotted quarter.

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dstraigh
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Re: Avoiding using cumbersome ties

Post by dstraigh » Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:02 am

zuill wrote:You can put a dotted quarter, but it looks like you've already filled the measure. Delete the rests and then put in the dotted quarter.

Zuill
I'm still having similar problems.
I've tried deleting the rests - no luck.

https://youtu.be/5JFfegjmffg

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motet
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Re: Avoiding using cumbersome ties

Post by motet » Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:34 am

After you delete the rests, they come back! The measure should stay blank. I hear a click after you've deleted the rests--are you clicking outside the measure? That will invoke the "fill with rests" option you obviously have set. After deleting the rests, go right back to the palette and select the quarter note without clicking anywhere in between.

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Re: Avoiding using cumbersome ties

Post by dstraigh » Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:42 am

motet wrote:After you delete the rests, they come back! The measure should stay blank. I hear a click after you've deleted the rests--are you clicking outside the measure? That will invoke the "fill with rests" option you obviously have set. After deleting the rests, go right back to the palette and select the quarter note without clicking anywhere in between.
You've cracked the code! First I used the eraser tool to erase the rests - THEN I hit the escape key to get out of eraser mode and THAT is when all the rests came back. However, on that topic you normally see rests on the measures that do not cause issues (such as when you open a new document). A bit confusing - some rests aren't really there - other rests are there - both look very similar.

But, in any case - I am now am aware of the subtlety and I am able to place the quarter note where I'd like.

Thank you!

David
By the way - this is a default install of Finale 26 - I never set any option to automatically fill measures with rests. In fact, I didn't even know that was an option. I might prefer that to be shut off. (if I could find where that setting is - if it exists)

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miker
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Re: Avoiding using cumbersome ties

Post by miker » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:35 am

Simple Entry Tool > Simple menu > Simple Entry Options...
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motet
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Re: Avoiding using cumbersome ties

Post by motet » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:38 am

Escaping from the eraser is not a concept.

I like fill with rests, but not everyone does.

The whole rest in empty measures is a special thing--indeed, you don't have to delete it.

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Re: Avoiding using cumbersome ties

Post by Djard » Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:38 am

In the attached file, you will find what I believe you seek to do, which, BTW (as far as I know), is technically incorrect. You will never see a work by a major publisher using notation in 4/4 that cannot be visually divided in two for sight readers. I would write a half-note tied to a quarter note. Maybe the phrase you are writing has a 6/8 feel in the measure, in which case you would temporarily change the time signature. Just my 'pinion.

If you wish to write your score in an unconventional manner, disable "Check for extra notes" and "Fill with rests..." in Simple Entry Options.

Hope this helps
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David Ward
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Re: Avoiding using cumbersome ties

Post by David Ward » Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:54 am

Djard wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:38 am
… …You will never see a work by a major publisher using notation in 4/4 that cannot be visually divided in two for sight readers.… …
As a blanket statement of fact this is untrue. eg Look no further than the standard Ricordi editions of the Verdi operas. It would not take me long to find 10s, probably 100s of examples from major publishers in the full scores and trombone parts on my shelves. eg In his later operas Verdi often has in 4/4 a bar of quaver-crotchet-crotchet-crotchet-quaver alternating with a bar of a straight four crotchets, or even the two sounding simultaneously.
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Re: Avoiding using cumbersome ties

Post by Djard » Fri Sep 20, 2019 3:32 pm

Oops! I sit corrected.

I interpret absence of such helpful symmetry in notation as disregard for the reader. Evidently, my sight reading is wanting.

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miker
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Re: Avoiding using cumbersome ties

Post by miker » Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:12 pm

But as a singer, I really like seeing the beat division correctly shown, except in very simple situations; quarter/half/quarter, for example. Maybe that’s just because of my skill level. (Or lack of it...)
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motet
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Re: Avoiding using cumbersome ties

Post by motet » Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:33 pm

There is no "rule," and it's not necessarily wrong or confusing not to show beat 3. As always, readability and clarity should be your guide.

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Re: Avoiding using cumbersome ties

Post by Djard » Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:56 pm

Motet is correct as who is the authority that make the rules?

Having just moved, my library is still in boxes. But I would be interested in what Elaine Gould has to say in her excellent Behind Bars compendium about preserving symmetry in notation to facilitate reading. Should we heed what music dictionaries and encyclopedias have to say?

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motet
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Re: Avoiding using cumbersome ties

Post by motet » Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:11 pm

As I said, there is no rule.

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Re: Avoiding using cumbersome ties

Post by ttw » Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:15 pm

I have gone through a large number of tangos, rumbas, and other Latin American pieces. Many use a division of a 4/4 measure into 3+3+2 eights. (It's common in jazz and pop too.) Every one of them used dotted-quarter then eighth-tied-to-quarter then quarter. One can look at various practices on todotango.com.

I use this structure a lot (Cuban bass commonly does this.) I also use eighth-quarter-quarter-eighth-quarter a lot. Normally I just write the non-standard version in Finale; cut (Ctrl-X) and paste back in place. Finale helpfully (or unhelpfully if one wants the non-standard version) changes things to the tied version.

The tied version seems to be a bit easier for most musicians to read (I never had much trouble with either, hah!). If one wants other people to play stuff, sticking closely to convention is helpful. (I also try to give instructions in Italian. I can reasonably expect Bulgarian, Chinese, and Americans to read these; I don't expect them to read Bulgarian, Chinese, or English.)

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motet
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Re: Avoiding using cumbersome ties

Post by motet » Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:47 pm

As far as I know, Finale only does such retranscribing if you use the copy function. Anything you enter directly it won't change. To prevent it from retranscribing dotted rhythms, go to the Quantization settings on the MIDI menu and check (believe it or not) "Allow dotted rests in compound meters."

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Peter Thomsen
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Re: Avoiding using cumbersome ties

Post by Peter Thomsen » Sat Sep 21, 2019 5:28 am

ttw wrote:
Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:15 pm
… I also use eighth-quarter-quarter-eighth-quarter a lot. Normally I just write the non-standard version in Finale; cut (Ctrl-X) and paste back in place. Finale helpfully (or unhelpfully if one wants the non-standard version) changes things to the tied version …
You can avoid that Finale “retranscribes” the rhythm notation.

But if I understand you correctly, you do need the “retranscribing” to the tied version, right?
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Re: Avoiding using cumbersome ties

Post by ttw » Sun Sep 22, 2019 2:45 am

I do things both ways. Fortunately, I can simply use "insert" to change notation and "paste" to keep the dotted versions.

What I found (using myself as both composer and sightreader, that's not as unusual as it would seem), is that having the bass line as (for example) dotted-quarter, dotted-quarter, quarter for a long string of measures isn't hard to read. However, I like to use other patterns like: quarters or dotted-quarter, eighth, quarter, quarter to mark off phrase endings or to emphasize part of a piece or just to change things. Then the ties (showing the middle of the measure) tend to make things easier to read. When I use a mixture of bass patterns and a mixture of melodic stuff (often guided by the clave), the "standard" method makes things easier to read. (I think that's because one can use the implied half-measure mark to re-calibrate things while sight reading.) Melodic parts like eighth-quarter-quarter-eighth-quarter or eighth-quarter-quarter-quarter-eighth don't line up well against any of the above bass lines so the extra help is nice.

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