Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

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bj nick
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Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by bj nick » Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:42 pm

So I have had to do a lot of manual re-spacing via the speedy entry tool....in a particular piece with a slow tempo and lots of 16th and 32nd notes, it gets really tedious. I'd like to understand how to set up the spacing in the first place. It's not a matter of bars per system; within an individual measure the first note entered is in the "right place," but the next will be two inches to the right! Obviously I'm not understanding how to set up the spacing correctly. Any advice appreciated. (NOTE: I attached an example bar.)

Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

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miker
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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by miker » Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:02 pm

1. Work in scroll view, save the spacing for the end. Automatic music spacing can be on or off, your choice.

2. In page view, turn automatic spacing off. Select the measure or measures, tap the 4 key to apply spacing, and Update Layout (look up the Windows shortcut.)

It won't be perfect, but it will be close enough. Tweak as needed, as a LAST STEP.
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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by zuill » Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:09 pm

I keep Automatic Spacing and Automatic Update Layout on all the time. I work in Page View. After everything is entered, if I need to make adjustments, first I start with "Incorporate Manual Spacing" in Spacing Options. If you have more than one staff, then use the beat chart to adjust things, making sure you don't respace the measure again, or you'll lose those adjustments.

In your example, make sure to remove all the manual note placement first. If you don't, applying note or beat spacing will give strange results.

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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by motet » Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:39 pm

In Scroll view, Simple entry will grow the measure as you add notes, whereas Speedy entry won't. I use the latter; it's sometimes annoying, but I've learned to live with it. If it gets really crowded, you can leave the measure, which will trigger respacing, then come back.

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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by miker » Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:38 pm

I guess we all have a way that works best for what we do. No wrong or right.
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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by zuill » Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:47 pm

With pencil and paper, I had to perceive all the spacing ahead of time, before proceeding. I think I spent more time "imagining" the score than I did actually penciling it in. Even with pencil, one wanted to avoid unnecessary erasing. With pen (which I never really had professional skill for), the mental preparation was even more important.

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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by David Ward » Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:23 am

zuill wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:47 pm
With pencil and paper, I had to perceive all the spacing ahead of time, before proceeding. I think I spent more time "imagining" the score than I did actually penciling it in. Even with pencil, one wanted to avoid unnecessary erasing. With pen (which I never really had professional skill for), the mental preparation was even more important.
Yes, that's it! I often prefer to work in Page View and that's probably why. However, I find Staff Sets in Scroll View a real boon as well; so a bit of both.
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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by bj nick » Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:36 pm

miker wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:02 pm
1. Work in scroll view, save the spacing for the end. Automatic music spacing can be on or off, your choice.

Hey Mike-- thanks as always. The "hit 4 for spacing" tip was magical! That's exactly what I needed.

As far as working in scroll view, it doesn't work for me....I need to see more than just the line I'm working on. I am always looking around, adjusting based on what happened before, what will happen, copying-pasting bars, notes, etc. It's just not convenient.....I would think I'd be fairly typical but apparently not.....if I knew exactly what I'd be copying/writing then yeah, scroll view would be the ticket.

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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by bj nick » Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:42 pm

I mentioned to Mike that scroll view is just not convenient/efficient for me....I need a broader view of things so I can see the structure, what's past and and where it's headed, grab this or that, copy-paste, etc. I'm thinking if I was copying parts, then scroll view would be great, but even then....I used to write tons of horn parts, and there was lots of copy-paste. These days I'm mainly composing.......scroll view does not lend itself to that....unless I'm missing something.

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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by bj nick » Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:48 pm

zuill wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:09 pm
I keep Automatic Spacing and Automatic Update Layout on all the time. I work in Page View. After everything is entered, if I need to make adjustments, first I start with "Incorporate Manual Spacing" in Spacing Options. If you have more than one staff, then use the beat chart to adjust things, making sure you don't respace the measure again, or you'll lose those adjustments.

In your example, make sure to remove all the manual note placement first. If you don't, applying note or beat spacing will give strange results.

Zuill
What is the "beat chart?" Is that the white layout when you use speedy entry to manually adjust a bar? Dragging notes to where you want them? Ugh, how tedious.....my issue is that with slower pieces, especially when I'm writing flourishy, virtuosic stuff, it's a TON of notes.....32nds a lot of the time.....like, 12 notes- to -the -beat- kind- of- things occasionally (writing flute variations for a young virtuoso), and manually dragging TWELVE NOTES here and there is tedious......using Miker's "hit 4" solved that instantly; tried it on a bunch of the problematic measures, and wow; instant gratification. So why would I need the beat chart? And why would I need to use the "manual spacing" option? Thanks for your time.

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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by zuill » Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:59 pm

There were some notes in the posted file that had been manually moved in horizontal position. I removed that data and then the notes spaced properly.

The Beat Chart is found in the Measure Tool. You can move one of those handles and notes in every staff will move accordingly. If you manually move notes horizontally with the Note Position Tool in Special Tools, then only notes in that staff move, and notes in other staves will no longer align properly with that staff.

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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by motet » Thu Sep 03, 2020 4:06 pm

I've never quite understood why the beat charts aren't there automatically. You need to to something to enable them.

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zuill
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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by zuill » Thu Sep 03, 2020 4:11 pm

I'm not sure I understand. They show up for me in the Measure Tool when clicking on the handle as they always have. Am I missing something?

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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by motet » Thu Sep 03, 2020 4:35 pm

They seem to appear now once you've applied spacing to a measure (whether automatically or not). I rarely use beat charts and may be misremembering, but I seem to recall you used to have to do something to get them to appear. The manual tells you to go into the measure tool and do Position Notes/Use Beat Chart Spacing.

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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by Peter Thomsen » Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:17 pm

Yes, it is a feature in the Measure Attributes.

In the pop up menu {Position Notes} you can select
Using Beat-Chart Spacing

I think that {Using Beat-Chart Spacing} automatically gets selected when you Apply Music Spacing.


zuill wrote:
Tue Sep 01, 2020 7:09 pm
I keep Automatic Spacing and Automatic Update Layout on all the time …
That, I suppose, is the reason why the Beat Charts always show up for Zuill.
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miker
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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by miker » Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:37 pm

bj nick, I use the beat spacing quite a bit. With lyrics, often the auto spacing is just a tad off. The beat spacing lets me shift things to improve lyric clearance.

I have auto update layout on; maybe that’s why the beat chart shows up for me?
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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by motet » Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:44 pm

Peter Thomsen wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:17 pm
I think that {Using Beat-Chart Spacing} automatically gets selected when you Apply Music Spacing.
Since one is very unlikely not to apply music spacing, I wonder if the way it works is some ancient relic.

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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by zuill » Thu Sep 03, 2020 6:15 pm

If you look at the db available in the Beat Chart window, that probably gives insight. I think that data is not created until spacing is applied.

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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by Peter Thomsen » Thu Sep 03, 2020 9:27 pm

zuill wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 6:15 pm
If you look at the db available in the Beat Chart window, that probably gives insight. I think that data is not created until spacing is applied …
Indeed.
Try this:
Open a new empty document (e. g. a Document Without Libraries), and use the Measure Attributes, the pop up menu Position Notes, to select {Use Beat-Chart Spacing}.
When you click OK to return to the score, you will see an extra measure handle below the normal handle.
Click this lower handle, to open the Beat-Chart.
Since the measure is a new, empty measure, the Beat-Chart shows that all the beats are positioned at their default - “Time Signature” - position (= no spacing data yet).
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motet
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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by motet » Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:37 pm

Looks like note or beat spacing turns on the beat chart, time signature spacing takes it away, but I'm not sure anyone uses the latter. I find it pretty confusing, but I guess less so now.

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HOW DO I DO THIS?????????

Post by bj nick » Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:02 pm

I've attached the problematic bar once again....I've followed instructions ( I think....evidently not), and this bar will simply not cooperate. Just about at the pitch- the- computer- out -the- window stage at this point....you'll see the figure with the 15-let, followed by a quarter note.....I want to change the quarter and the remaining two beats after it to a dotted quarter, followed by two 16ths and 2 eighth notes.....which is perfectly mathematical (I wrote what I want in the 3/4 bar below it....just to be clear what I want.) I lined up the beats using speedy entry.....Finale will not allow me to enter the notes....what results is total garbage: note values are reversed, an 1/8 rest appears in the subsequent 3/4 bar, etc. I'm flummoxed at this point, after hours of this....couple days, really. What in *%$%! am I doing wrong here???

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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by zuill » Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:42 pm

Is this close to what you want?

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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by bj nick » Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:09 pm

Thank you, Zuill, but when I paste it into the score, you'll see what I get. Btw I tried pasting it right over, then tried erasing the bar, then pasting it, same result both times. I attached the result.

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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by motet » Sat Sep 05, 2020 11:40 pm

For some reason, if you define the tuplet as 15 32nds in the space of 1 quarter, Simple entry goes haywire--is this what you're doing? But if you use 15 32nds in the space of 8 32nds, it's fine. Yet another bug.
Last edited by motet on Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by bj nick » Sun Sep 06, 2020 1:12 am

Wow, that worked perfectly. No problem. This is one of those times where I'm THRILLED to hear that it's a bug......because the alternative is that I'm missing something so basic that I'm killing myself over it......could not figure this out. Anyway, appreciated!

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