Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

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zuill
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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by zuill » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:41 pm

When using Speedy or the Tuplet Tool, there are no rests added. I don't think they are necessary. In fact, if one wants to d 3 8ths in place of 2 8ths, and then want to enter an 8th and then a quarter, those rests are actually annoying. Since other tools don't add place holders, I don't see why Simple needs to.

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Re: Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by miker » Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:56 pm

We'll agree to disagree.
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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by motet » Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:01 pm

So, it seems like the bug-avoiding practice is always use the same note value in the setup ("i Xth notes in the space of j Xth notes") and never delete the rests.

Since most people don't want rests in their tuplets, I think unsuspecting new users can see the rests, say "I don't want that!", and delete them. Not "Simple."

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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by bj nick » Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:54 pm

motet wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:21 am
I see. Well, this should get their attention even without looking at the frame. Thanks for persisting.
Apropos of nothing, this is now my favorite measure in music.....better even than the opening bar of Beethoven's 5th.

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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by miker » Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:11 pm

motet wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:01 pm

Since most people don't want rests in their tuplets, I think unsuspecting new users can see the rests, say "I don't want that!", and delete them. Not "Simple."
Only the ones who can’t be bothered to watch videos, work tutorials, or read about them.
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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by motet » Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:26 pm

Does the tutorial/video admonish you from deleting the rests?

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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by zuill » Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:37 pm

I just watched it (the video), and no warning about the rests, one way or another. The video also is absent a warning about the bug, or any warning about not doing 3 8ths in place of 1 quarter. That's probably because the programmers are not aware of the bug. So, a user won't know what to do with the extra rest that is generated, or that the numerical value of the added rest has an unusual, erroneous value.

Zuill

P.S.: Here's all i could find mentioning rests in Simple Entry Tuplet entry:

"Click-in the triplet on beat three as shown below. With the first click, Finale creates the triplet bracket with two rests. For the second two notes, click to overwrite the rests."

There's no mention of what to do if extra rests still exist after entering a triplet. I'm guessing that's because the writers of the documentation are not aware of the circumstances under which extra rests are left behind.
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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by miker » Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:46 pm

No, it doesn't tell you not to delete the rests. It just demonstrates three ways to enter tuplets, referring to the rests as placeholders, and never suggesting that you delete them.

As far as not mentioning the bug, why would they? If you use the methods they suggest, it doesn't happen.

If they were to mention all the ways to use the tuplet tool to trigger an error, it would be akin to those operating manuals for a toaster that start with three pages of warnings, including Do Not Use In Bathtub, before it says "Put in the bread, and push the button."

You guys do what you want. I'll continue to bumble along in my own happy way, and insert tuplets with no errors.
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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by zuill » Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:58 pm

miker wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:46 pm

As far as not mentioning the bug, why would they? If you use the methods they suggest, it doesn't happen.
Actually, since the tool gives the option of defining how a tuplet is set up, then all combinations of these options should work. Entering 3 8ths in place of 1 quarter is a legitimate selection in the tool. If you set it up in the Tuplet Tool or Speedy, it works, because placeholder rests are not involved. If you set it up in Simple, and delete the placeholder rests first, it works. The bug is the programming of the placeholder rests, and how corruption occurs.

Since MakeMusic now acknowledges the bug, and that the behavior is not correct, when it should be, I am at least vindicated in that this longstanding simple Entry Tuplet Tool bug is real, not desired, and probably should be fixed.

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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by motet » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:08 pm

Sorry to belabor a point, but if you enter either of these mixed tuplets the prescribed way in Simple entry, without deleting the rests, this is what you get. I honestly don't know why they don't spend an afternoon or two and fix all these problems. I'm sure it would save them money by decreasing support tickets.

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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by miker » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:08 pm

Zuill: You are vindicated. It will never be fixed.

Motet: You are correct. This is a legitimate bug. The workaround is simple, though. Before going to the next entry following the tuplet, right arrow to the superfluous rest, and DELETE. Maybe, since I enter more slowly than the rest of the experts, not being consumed in the development of my magnum opus, I have the time to notice, and deal with, this sort of thing.
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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by motet » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:13 pm

zuill wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:58 pm
If you set it up in Simple, and delete the placeholder rests first, it works. The bug is the programming of the placeholder rests, and how corruption occurs.
As I showed several posts back, there's the end-of-measure problem which occurs because I deleted the rests, so the bugs leading to corruption are manifold.

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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by zuill » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:21 pm

I think it will be fixed, because this is something they now know about which I believe they never know about before. Motet, I think you should also report your findings to MakeMusic, as it will add to the information they need to fix all of the issues, not just some of the issues. I believe they didn't think that users would do more than the most basic of tuplets. They probably didn't imagine things like combining note values within a tuplet as worth testing. It seems like all these oddities are directly related to how they programmed the rest placeholders.

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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by motet » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:24 pm

OK, I'll try. I'm assuming these still exist in F26, which I've bought but haven't installed since I'm in the middle of a project. I don't think they'll accept 2014.5 in a support ticket.

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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by zuill » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:27 pm

motet wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:13 pm
zuill wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:58 pm
If you set it up in Simple, and delete the placeholder rests first, it works. The bug is the programming of the placeholder rests, and how corruption occurs.
As I showed several posts back, there's the end-of-measure problem which occurs because I deleted the rests, so the bugs leading to corruption are manifold.
I can also confirm this behavior in v26. They do have a lot of longstanding bugs that they probably aren't even aware of.

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Re: Setting up spacing to avoid "crowded measures"

Post by zuill » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:29 pm

motet wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:24 pm
OK, I'll try. I'm assuming these still exist in F26, which I've bought but haven't installed since I'm in the middle of a project. I don't think they'll accept 2014.5 in a support ticket.
I'd still give it a try. Mention my name in the ticket so they will realize it's related to my ticket. v26 is behaving the same way. I looked back to 2011, and that had the same bugs.

Zuill
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